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Thread: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

  1. #1

    Default In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    The units, battles, clans, characters, etc.

    How many things are historically inaccurate?

  2. #2
    Goma125's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    1.Weird Japanese
    When you order units to move faster...
    They say "bai no hayasade"(probably it's literal translation of "double time"), but it should be "kakeasi"(駆け足、run faster).
    They also say "sirizoke" but it means "retreat".
    When you order units to attack,they say "teki wo kougeki seyo"(attack the enemy), but "kakare"(掛かれ、attack)is more accurate in sengoku era.
    etc...

    2.Yari Ashigaru
    They equip Jumonji Yari(十文字槍)、or Chidori Yari(千鳥槍) but these spears are made by highly skilled blacksmith and not for Ashigaru.
    Historically Ashigarus equip with long pike and used it as "blunt" weapon.
    First they form Phalanx and swing pike downward to enemy head, repeat it over and over again, and when enemy formation disrupt,
    Ashigaru pursue and kill them by using pike as "pierce" weapon.

    3.Horses
    They are too big.

  3. #3

    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    Interesting.

    How accurate are the clan bonuses? i know the takeda cavalry bonus is right, but what about the Uesugi monk bonus?

  4. #4

    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    The sight of "Katana Samurai" and "Katana Cavalry" in Shogun II gameplay videos makes me cringe. I find it highly unlikely that a unit of heavy cavalry, for example, would only use a sword in combat. At least they should have a lance or a bow as a primary weapon.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kewpur View Post
    How accurate are the clan bonuses? i know the takeda cavalry bonus is right, but what about the Uesugi monk bonus?
    Those factional boni are a highly abstract thing in computer games. You could very well argue against them from a historical perspective.

  5. #5

    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Those factional boni are a highly abstract thing in computer games. You could very well argue against them from a historical perspective.
    And some of them are just made up. Like the No-dachi bonus for Date. Why? No-dachi was a weapon popular in the 14th century, but in the Sengoku period the only place where they were widely used were in souther Kyushu. Which is why No-dachi were sometimes called Satsuma-dachi.

  6. #6

    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    Stuff like clan name, placement, general setting, pretty good. Everything else you can chalk down to "it's a videogame."

    Basically though, what makes you win the game is not remotely what made successful daimyo successful. What made a great general was tactical innovation, both weapons AND tactics (Nobunaga rode to victory largely on being the first and the best to apply matchlocks). It was also managing internal politics, which the game includes a (pretty weak) simulation of that doesn't match the complexity of day-to-day management in a zero-sum game of extremely ambitious warrior leaders working together. Then you have the really boring but crucial things, like managing a supply line.

    I'm not complaining, of course. If you think about it, daimyo worked all day every day for 50 years to accomplish something we expect to wrap up in ~20 hours. You never have to use the bathroom in an fps game, either. On the other hand, so many important historical battles were decided by factors that just can't be coded for. Instead, tactical skill has to revolve around placement and troop choice. It's assumed your army is perfectly trained and perfectly supplied, that your captains are loyal, that camps and marches always proceeded without issue...

    So they have to "massage" history to make this kind of tactical skill more useful. Thus, including as many kinds of troops as possible. Bam, katana infantry and cavalry. There's precedent, but they certainly weren't widely used.

    As for bonuses, of course they have to be pulled out of thin air. Some are easy, like the Takeda were mentioned and were indeed largely known for their cavalry charges. The Mori fought an important naval battle against Oda Nobunaga... so give them navy bonuses I guess? The designers go down the list, eventually they get to Date. They can't give two clans the same bonus.. there's nothing really for them.. eeeh give them no-dachi. Whatcha gonna do.

    Other things, like the role of warrior monks, really don't make sense in how they're raised and used in the game, but it would take so much effort to code in hundreds of temples you have to either ally with, co-opt, or destroy. Adding the big ones like enryakuji or kofukuji as a faction would be cool but require way more refinement on the province level than the game could possibly do. Geisha being invincible death-assassins.. ok that's incredibly stupid too.

    Other than that there's nothing egregious. It's a videogame, you know? I think it's pretty good given the limitations.

  7. #7
    Wodeson's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    I'm not that familiar with this period, but manged to dig this up from an old WRG Army List by Phil Barker.

    Although many samurai now carried the spear-like yari and some clans specified that these should be of pike length rather than the usual 8 feet, they still fought as individuals rather than in formation. Their two swords were now used only when the longer weapon was broken or inconvenient. Their armour was lighter than the cumbersome oyoroi of previous times, but the addition of arm and thigh armour made it heavier than the do-maru of the ashigaru “light feet” and monks who also used yari or naginata.

    We assume that as the bow lost favour for use on foot, the standard of use declined. Circumstantial evidence tending to confirm this is the use of pavises by small groups that needed to stand up to dense enemy shooting, and that Japanese bowmen in 1592 were out-shot by Koreans.


    Ikko Ikki were a mass militant religious movement based on the peasantry, but with a hard core of conventional warriors and Sohei. They were sometimes beaten off by improvised town militias reinforced with local samurai, but such democratic self-defence organisations were considered to be almost equally subversive.


    Ronin were impoverished master-less samurai. We assume that they would have little armour or weapons except the cherished swords that were the only remaining sign of samurai status, so would be faster moving and less cohesive.


    The Sohei monks still meddled in politics, but were less impetuous in battle. Their few cavalry were still often depicted in the later period with bow as well as naginata.


    In earlier times bow armed samurai cavalry fought in wedge or “with bridles aligned” but by now had largely replaced bows with yari, and are depicted charging without regard for formation.


    The most famous use of palisades was at Nagashino in 1575, where a heavy rolling fire of matchlocks from behind sections of palisade broke up rash cavalry attacks, leaving them vulnerable to foot samurai counter-attack through gaps between the sections.

  8. #8

    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    The description of the Samurai in the first paragraph almost has me think the Yari Samurai and Yari ashigaru should switch spots, so that the Yari Samurai can wield katanas when the long weapon is 'inconvenient'. It would deny them fighting as individuals when it comes to the spear, though.

    Interesting comment on the archery. Would guns be so common earlier on? Whether by being quicker to access in research or perhaps not requiring research at all?

  9. #9
    Raimeken's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    All units being dyed in your clan colors is probably the most obvious inaccuracy, real samurai often wore very different armor from each other and could only tell each other apart by the sashimoto (flags).

    I think the Uesugi monk bonus is not really accurate (cause monk training was probably the same/equal), but it at least gives them an advantage somewhere.

    The whole idea of 'katana' Samurai is fake altogether, but losing them would totally remove an important part of the rock-paper-scissor warfare

  10. #10

    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raimeken View Post
    All units being dyed in your clan colors is probably the most obvious inaccuracy, real samurai often wore very different armor from each other and could only tell each other apart by the sashimoto (flags).

    I think the Uesugi monk bonus is not really accurate (cause monk training was probably the same/equal), but it at least gives them an advantage somewhere.

    The whole idea of 'katana' Samurai is fake altogether, but losing them would totally remove an important part of the rock-paper-scissor warfare
    The Uesugi monk bonus probably comes from Uesugi Kenshin. The guy only took the name (Kenshin) after becoming a Buddhist Monk, and devoting himself to Bishamonten. It got so crazy that often his soldiers considered him to be the human avatar of Bishamonten (the god of war).

    I do admit, I am sad that I've yet to see Sanada Nobushige(Yukimura) appear on the battlefield.
    Last edited by Calax; March 22, 2011 at 12:34 AM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calax View Post
    The Uesugi monk bonus probably comes from Uesugi Kenshin. The guy only took the name (Kenshin) after becoming a Buddhist Monk, and devoting himself to Bishamonten. It got so crazy that often his soldiers considered him to be the human avatar of Bishamonten (the god of war).
    But that doesn't mean he mobilized temple warriors en masse. In fact, he was a strong opponent of the Ikko-Ikki.

  12. #12

    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juggernaut View Post
    But that doesn't mean he mobilized temple warriors en masse. In fact, he was a strong opponent of the Ikko-Ikki.
    Yeah... but it's still A semi-logical way to put in a bonus. Rather than just making something up out of thin air to put the faction on even ground with those who were more logical (the Takeda's Cav for example)

  13. #13

    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    I was wondering whether the arrows are too powerful - could a Japanese arrow really go straight through a warrior the way it does in this game?
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  14. #14
    ROFL Copter's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    Arrows are often overpowered in Total War, and this might be the worst instance. I don't profess to know nearly as much about the era as I do Europe, but I am fairly certain that a single volley of arrows wouldn't cripple an army.

  15. #15

    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    Quote Originally Posted by SonOfCrusader76 View Post
    I was wondering whether the arrows are too powerful - could a Japanese arrow really go straight through a warrior the way it does in this game?
    If 20~30kg armor is completely useless, you might as well go into battle naked for the extra mobility. Japanese armors were designed to stop arrows, because bows were very common weapons. Archers were taught to aim the unarmored part of the opponent(face, armpit, legs etc), precisely because arrows could not penetrate armor easily.

  16. #16

    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    I actually do archery with a variety of bows, for subject matter traditional recurve and long bows. So I guess all I'd have to ask you is, Have you seen what an arrow can do in person? A crude training arrow from a 60 lb pull can penetrate about 2" of dense wood pretty consistently, and a broad head can do far worse. The game of course has to balance out the idea of how many soldiers would be killed or at least rendered combat ineffective, I for one think the arrows work just fine, I just get frustrated at fighting armies with 10+ units of samurai archers in them!
    Last edited by Gen. Sherman; March 23, 2011 at 05:47 PM.

  17. #17
    RollingWave's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    A few general thought.

    1. there are obviously some serious inaccuratcies, but as a whole if we compare this to M2TW or RTW I think it's actually a lot closer to the truth than those two , at least there's no super heat seeking warhounds and knights wearing plate armour with jousting lance in 1100.


    2. bows : before teipo (arquebus) became wide spread, bows were generally considered the most leathal weapon in Japanese warfare. and the status of a Samurai s really marked as much as in bowmenship as anything else. IMHO their power is fairly accurate but what is not is their abundence, having large Ashigaru contingents being able to pull bows almost as effectively as Samurais is fairly unrealistic, if they just remove most ashigaru bows it would balance it a lot more (and more realistic). Though yeah.. Japanese archery is said to be not particularly good, at least relative to Continental standards (then again, East Asia Continental standards on bows were really high for obvious reasons). neither the Koreans nor the Chinese were impressed with Japanese archery during the Imjin war. they were far more impressed with the Japanese infantry formation's discipline than anythign else.

    3. Horse : yeah.. horses are way too good in this S2TW, by the later 16th C really the only real cavalry units would be the generals themself (with some very rare instances where their would still be real horse archers that work as units.). and that's more for running than anything else. Only higher ranking Samurais would be mounted and that was mostly for command purpose than anything else . though I can understand from a game perspective that going that way would probably turn off most casual gamers.

    4. armour : armour's effectiveness against arrow is really a difficult thing to judge, humans are rarely a fixed stationary target, and obviously armour's effectiveness lies in both the protective nature of the armour itself and how much area it covered, Japanese armour being of the lamellar variety generally was better in the former than the later... aka arrows actually going through armour was kinda rare, but there were enough exposed areas that arrows were still quite effective for disabling / wounding targets.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    Apparently, the "sōhei did not operate as individuals, or even as members of small, individual temples, but rather as warriors in a large extended brotherhood or monastic order. The 'home temple' of a sōhei monastic order might have had several, if not tens or a hundred, smaller monasteries, training halls, and subordinate temples." - according to wikipedia, and a number of other websites.

    This would mean that, in-game, the Sohei (warrior monks) should be represented as a clan by themselves. But then there are other factors here - the Sohei would also work for other factions or clans, sort-of like a band of mercenaries. The Ikko-Ikki seemed to be more widespread than the Sohei during the Sengoku-jidai, but the Warrior monk in Shogun 2 are modelled after the sohei, most likely because they had more of a "uniform" or sorts in comparisson to teh Ikko-ikki, and look cool.


    In regards to the many people who keep referring to the Katana/No-Dachi units not being realistic.... I'm suprised no-one has mentioned anything about the Ninja - since the ninja represented in this game are nothing more than "Hollywood" ninja.

    There is no evidence to suggest that ninja ever wore black costumes. Ninja were first depicted as black-clad stalkers in the eighteenth century Kabuki theater. In Japanese theater, prop handlers were usually dressed in black as they moved across the dark backstage. This allowed them to rearrange the scene without being conspicious; the audience acted as if the prop handlers were truely invisible. It is very likely that this was the true "origin" of the ninja costume. According Stephen K. Hayes, himself a practitioner of modern Ninjutsu, suggests that the traditional ninja costume may never have been used in real life.

    Whenever possible, a ninja would dress appropriately to the location. Inside a palace, they would dress as samurai or servants. In a village, they would be hidden as peasants or fishermen. Posing as beggers or insane people were likely, as they had such a low status that most people (including guards) would try NOT to notice them. Anyone who saw a ninja wearing a dark garb would instantly recognize they should not be there.

    On top of this, they would never engage in combat, ESPECIALLY against a samurai. Ninjutsu is the art of stealth and evading. Ninja would do anything to get the job done, and survive at the end of it. This would mean they are more likely to set traps or distractions on a battlefield, rather than engage the enemy directly.


    Then there are the Geisha's who aren't actually assassins OR prostitutes. They are entertainers. Japanese prostitutes are called Courtesans, and female assassins, I think, are called Kunoichi (?). They put Geisha in the game because they are more popular and recognizable, apparently.


    So, if you want a more historically accurate depiction of Japan, you are probably best to go back in time and visit Japan yourself - since most games, books, and movies, will most likely continue to depict Ninja and Samurai in a similar fashion to Shogun 2, because that's what the audience expects.

  19. #19

    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    Re: Sohei: the problem with there being "a sohei faction" is that it's like saying there should be "a samurai faction." It's true that there were large brotherhoods encompassing hundreds of branch temples, but there were still many independent temples in addition to four or five big ones (kofukuji, enryakuji, todaiji, etc). These were sprawling, land-owning, massive political, economic, and military entities. They were the third part of the kamakura era triangle of power around Kyoto: nobility, samurai, temples. As this system fell apart and the provinces spun away, just like the Samurai gained local control over their land as the central authority weakened, so too did the temples need to either assert control over their territory or lose it to local samurai. The larger temples were major players, especially around Kyoto, and were either conquered or brought under the control of the Unifiers (Oda Nobunaga burning down Enryakuji is considered by many the worst of his excesses, one of the final signs that the old order was gone forever, and it was seen by many that his death was karma for this action). There were many smaller temples that Nobunaga, for instance, simply co-opted, requiring tribute and troops from them just like any of the minor lords that became his vassals. Temples that resisted were destroyed.

    The Ikko-Ikki were a whole different thing, a large and relatively young religious movement called Jodo Shinshu that was a radically different take on Buddhism than the other large sects involved. The Honganji, the head temple of the Jodo Shinshu, wasn't like the other head temples; they all drew their upper leadership from second and third sons of the nobility and concerned themselves with the salvation of their own monks (though, according to Tendai or Hosso teachings, simply by being a bunch of virtuous guys on a mountain you're making the universe as a whole work better). Jodo Shinshu was a salvational sect, meaning it promised that if ANYONE believed in the Amida Buddha, they would be saved and go to the Pure Land. It sounds a lot like evangelical christianity, and they acted like it too. Peasants believing in it would defend the Honganji's branch temples to the death, and they would find alliances with local samurai and minor lords who also had an interest in defying whatever daimyo was trying to consolidate control of that province. By the time Nobunaga squared off against the Honganji, the head abbot of the temple was basically a daimyo unto himself, in control of 3 or 4 provinces, with frequent uprisings in several of the provinces that Nobunaga had already conquered.

    Representing that in a game is, well, really hard. So there are recruitable monks, and an ikko-ikki faction that mostly uses ashigaru.

    Also yeah, geisha and ninja, lol. Whatcha gonna do.

  20. #20

    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    Shogun 2 is more accurate than the other Total War games, although when you think about spell casting witches in Medieval 2 or Ballista chariots in Rome, that doesn't say much.

    Still, they've done very good. You can't have it 100% accurate as it would be too complex and dull, while there's no such thing as 100% accyracy anyway as there are many different interpretations of history.

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