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Thread: Mod to stop AI from spawning units instantly when out of your line of sight

  1. #101
    Ariovistus Maximus's Avatar Troll Whisperer
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    Default Re: Mod to stop AI from spawning units instantly when out of your line of sight

    Quote Originally Posted by Babaganoush View Post
    Oda doesn't die off in round one anymore!

    I guess the mod is working as intended.
    I'm pretty sure that the Oda die because the Tokugawa and Saito simultaneously attack with their starting armies on turn 1. How does a mod that nerfs AI army spawning fix that?
    Land of the Free! Home of the

  2. #102

    Default Re: Mod to stop AI from spawning units instantly when out of your line of sight

    Quote Originally Posted by DrJambo View Post
    lol, there's just no pleasing people. For years many people (including myself) complained that TW campaigns were too easy. I remember people creating garrison scripts or scripts to artificially up AI generals, etc. Now the campaign's kicking some butt, people are complaining about the AI cheats... Face up to it, the AI needs cheats to be competitive. CA have tried all sorts of economic ones in previous titles and it's never enough. Now they've finally struck it at the right difficulty, it's too much. lol. You're hoping for a miracle that only a human opponent can provide.

    Well, at the very least we now have an excellent reason for developing our agents down the spying tech trees.
    Indeed. @all the moaners regarding 'cheating': Can you win? Have you won? If so, what's the problem? Would you rather go back to being a steamroller? Then it will be 'OMG TEH AI IZ TOO EEESY DIS GAME SUX CA R RUBISH'

    OPEN BATTLEFIELD CAPTURE POINTS AND IMPACT PUFFS HAVE GOT TO GO!
    REVERT INFANTRY THROWING PILAE TO ROME TW'S SYSTEM AS IT WAS PERFECT!

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  3. #103

    Default Re: Mod to stop AI from spawning units instantly when out of your line of sight

    I've found that Hard and higher campaign difficulty settings are actually .. well.. Hard.

    Not because it's better but because of the huge leaps in cheats given to the AI, including costs, speeds, and extra recruitment slots which pretty much allow AI clans to pump out a constant stream of more units than you could ever hope to create.

    Aside from preferences on just how much the cheats should ramp up over the difficulty levels (A bit less please?) what has really annoyed me, now and in the past, was how the diplomacy is ruined by similar adjustments. I'm finding that when campaign difficulty is set to anything over Normal, then you'll just be attacked by everyone, diplo becomes near meaningless, and it turns into a digital 'bull in the ring' onslaught defense. Much like how all the older TW game's diplomacy was broken. I think the diplomacy is working great on Normal but is getting tossed out the window when raising the difficulty, which I'd like to do a bit, but it's a huge leap and breaks diplo.

    Having very friendly and long-time allies just up and declare war on you for no reason, other than you're the player, really pulls me out of the game. I can somewhat deal with eco and army cheats, but that is the killer.

    Edit: I'm just glad I can still play Normal on campaign and raise the battle AI to Hard and VHard.
    Last edited by NefariousKoel; April 02, 2011 at 02:51 PM.

  4. #104
    Tim_Ward's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Mod to stop AI from spawning units instantly when out of your line of sight

    The AI in Shogun 2 by all accounts cheats much less than the AI in Empire. The AI clearly has improved. No amount of cheating will disguise a bad AI. You will literally see it doing stupid things, it'll just be doing stupid things with much more troops than you. You don't see it doing so much stupid things in Shogun 2.

    Anyways, whilst rampaging across Japan, I happened upon these dudes:



    They've been left alone all game, so there's no real possibility that they formerly occupied other provinces. They have only got a market. They have full stack and half stack. If the AI is cheating by spawning free units, they will have samurai in that stack. If they don't cheat, they'll only have ashigaru.

    In the interests of SCIENCE I had a ninja sent to Echigo, and constructed a fleet of bow kobaya. My ninja boarded a ship, and the fleet set out for Sado. After out maneuvering the Date fleet (read: running away), the ninja was landed safely.

    This is what he found:



    Dominion of Dust. A city of sand. Built your world of nothing. So how long did it stand?
    A 100 years? Now wasn't it grand? Built your world of nothing. How long did it stand?
    What did you think would happen? When did you think it would all fall down?
    Domain of dust in a land of sand. Did yourself right, so let's feel grand.
    Domain of dust in a land of sand. Now there's nowhere left to stand.

  5. #105

    Default Re: Mod to stop AI from spawning units instantly when out of your line of sight

    With the suspenseful way you built up to the pic reveal I was expecting Sado island to look more like this:
    Last edited by Baron Von Pummel; April 02, 2011 at 06:45 PM.

  6. #106
    Tim_Ward's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Mod to stop AI from spawning units instantly when out of your line of sight



    Well, look, you have to understand that I encountered the island and noted it's big stack and lack of dojo the middle of last week, but because of lack of time I didn't play enough to get the ninja in place till yesterday. So I'd been wondering what I'd find for a few days.
    Dominion of Dust. A city of sand. Built your world of nothing. So how long did it stand?
    A 100 years? Now wasn't it grand? Built your world of nothing. How long did it stand?
    What did you think would happen? When did you think it would all fall down?
    Domain of dust in a land of sand. Did yourself right, so let's feel grand.
    Domain of dust in a land of sand. Now there's nowhere left to stand.

  7. #107

    Default Re: Mod to stop AI from spawning units instantly when out of your line of sight

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim_Ward View Post


    Well, look, you have to understand that I encountered the island and noted it's big stack and lack of dojo the middle of last week, but because of lack of time I didn't play enough to get the ninja in place till yesterday. So I'd been wondering what I'd find for a few days.
    Nice find. Do you were at war with them because some cheats may only be triggered if you are an enemy. The free experience upgrades are in the game sonce NTW. In my own game I did not stumble over a new cheat so far but there are some new variables in the files. However, this doesn't prove anything because during development stuff gets into the game that is later not used and Shogun has a lot of unused variables in other areas of the game.

  8. #108
    Tim_Ward's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Mod to stop AI from spawning units instantly when out of your line of sight

    It's Realm Divide Time, I'm at war with everyone.
    Dominion of Dust. A city of sand. Built your world of nothing. So how long did it stand?
    A 100 years? Now wasn't it grand? Built your world of nothing. How long did it stand?
    What did you think would happen? When did you think it would all fall down?
    Domain of dust in a land of sand. Did yourself right, so let's feel grand.
    Domain of dust in a land of sand. Now there's nowhere left to stand.

  9. #109

    Default Re: Mod to stop AI from spawning units instantly when out of your line of sight

    I believe what CA says... if your ninjas could spy an ambushing army no matter what, why should there be traits which up their spying skills? I guess that's just it.

  10. #110

    Default Re: Mod to stop AI from spawning units instantly when out of your line of sight

    It should be very easy to test whether the AI spawns things or not.

    - Make a hard save every so often
    - When you find a weak enemy seemingly spawning ridiculous amounts of stacks and sending them all at you, back up to a prior save.
    - Put all of your armies on defense, see how many attacks you take over 20 turns.
    - Back up to the prior save again, put armies on defense and send out agents to get rid of the FoW on all of their towns. See how many attacks you take over 20 turns.
    - Compare results.

    Ideally, you should be auto resolving every battle to give approximately the same losses to each side for each battle.

    If the AI is literally spawning stacks out of thin air you should see a large difference in their attacks, or at the very least you should see large armies clearly coming from outside the FoW and not from the cities themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim_Ward View Post
    It's Realm Divide Time, I'm at war with everyone.
    That doesn't really prove anything. I've played Uesugi and on turn 30 they have an stack like that. If they weren't at war for the first 30 turns, created a stack normally, then someone declared war, they wouldn't be spawning more units while they were still full.
    Last edited by Mabun; April 03, 2011 at 02:55 PM.

  11. #111
    Ariovistus Maximus's Avatar Troll Whisperer
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    Default Re: Mod to stop AI from spawning units instantly when out of your line of sight

    Maybe the AI wouldn't need to insta-spawn armies in its capital if it was even remotely aware of the need to defend its provinces. I started out as the Tokugawa and found out why the Oda always die in the first turn. They take their starting army out and attack one of their enemies in the first turn. Then the other one walks into their empty capital. The AI has serious strategic awareness issues.


    Quote Originally Posted by NefariousKoel View Post
    I'm finding that when campaign difficulty is set to anything over Normal, then you'll just be attacked by everyone, diplo becomes near meaningless, and it turns into a digital 'bull in the ring' onslaught defense.
    Depends on who you are and what you do. I started on Legendary right away and found the diplomacy to be the best of any of the TW games. However if you play as the Hattori, for example, you will get mobbed because they get a diplomacy penalty. If you border certain factions you will get mobbed. The Takeda and the Amako for example are highly belligerent to say the least, and will declare war on you for no apparent reason.

    And since you said that you found Hard and up to be a big leap in difficulty, I'd guess that the real reason the AI mobs you is because you weren't doing too well and your clan was relatively easy pickings. The AI in Shogun is definitely out to win; they'll act accordingly.
    Land of the Free! Home of the

  12. #112

    Default Re: Mod to stop AI from spawning units instantly when out of your line of sight

    Can someone explain that campaign handicap file to me? I never understood what the -3/-2/-1/0 etc thing is, and what does the true/false thing represent? What are the lines that benefit only the user/AI?

  13. #113
    Genava's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Mod to stop AI from spawning units instantly when out of your line of sight

    Thanks Deathblow for the file showing the bonus. 1 recrutement slot in more for the AI in Very Hard difficulty. Nice... CA, I hate you!
    LOTR mod for Shogun 2 Total War (Campaign and Battles!)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIywmAgUxQU

  14. #114
    Tim_Ward's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Mod to stop AI from spawning units instantly when out of your line of sight

    Quote Originally Posted by Mabun View Post
    That doesn't really prove anything. I've played Uesugi and on turn 30 they have an stack like that. If they weren't at war for the first 30 turns, created a stack normally, then someone declared war, they wouldn't be spawning more units while they were still full.
    What do you mean 'full'? Is there an AI unit quota?
    Dominion of Dust. A city of sand. Built your world of nothing. So how long did it stand?
    A 100 years? Now wasn't it grand? Built your world of nothing. How long did it stand?
    What did you think would happen? When did you think it would all fall down?
    Domain of dust in a land of sand. Did yourself right, so let's feel grand.
    Domain of dust in a land of sand. Now there's nowhere left to stand.

  15. #115
    Dynamo11's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Mod to stop AI from spawning units instantly when out of your line of sight

    Troll thread. Lock requested


  16. #116

    Default Re: Mod to stop AI from spawning units instantly when out of your line of sight

    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamo11 View Post
    Troll thread. Lock requested
    Troll post. We're calmly discussing if AI cheats or not, so the lock request is inconsistent.

  17. #117
    Ariovistus Maximus's Avatar Troll Whisperer
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    Default Re: Mod to stop AI from spawning units instantly when out of your line of sight

    I've read the announcement from CA that the AI can't spawn armies. And I didn't think it happened, except I'm rather suspicious about this one time...

    I was the Hattori in a multiplayer campaign, only hard difficulty, and was attacked by the Tsutsui, that clan to the west. I destroyed their army and counterinvaded toward their capital. My army was hidden in the forest. So I end the turn and next thing I know there is an enemy army, about the same size as mine, standing RIGHT NEXT TO my army. I didn't see it walk their although I admittedly wasn't paying much attention. but seriously they were a couple pixels away and our flags were overlapping.

    What's up with that? Zone of control shouldn't even let them that close, and I should have ambushed them if they did walk there. What gives?
    Land of the Free! Home of the

  18. #118

    Default Re: Mod to stop AI from spawning units instantly when out of your line of sight

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariovistus Maximus View Post
    I've read the announcement from CA that the AI can't spawn armies. And I didn't think it happened, except I'm rather suspicious about this one time...

    I was the Hattori in a multiplayer campaign, only hard difficulty, and was attacked by the Tsutsui, that clan to the west. I destroyed their army and counterinvaded toward their capital. My army was hidden in the forest. So I end the turn and next thing I know there is an enemy army, about the same size as mine, standing RIGHT NEXT TO my army. I didn't see it walk their although I admittedly wasn't paying much attention. but seriously they were a couple pixels away and our flags were overlapping.

    What's up with that? Zone of control shouldn't even let them that close, and I should have ambushed them if they did walk there. What gives?
    No worries. Some noob will come along soon to tell you that it was all a dream... just a dream... because, of course, it is impossible. So don't trust your own eyes. Trust their say so, lol.

  19. #119
    DeMolay's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Mod to stop AI from spawning units instantly when out of your line of sight

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariovistus Maximus View Post
    I've read the announcement from CA that the AI can't spawn armies. And I didn't think it happened, except I'm rather suspicious about this one time...
    to be honest , it's just one guy of CA who said that on another forum's thread and he didn't even answer to the reactions of non-fanboys posts that clearly shows that what he said was wrong ( clans with only 1 relatively poor settlement mustering nearly 2 full stack +xp when the player with 4 settlements can't even muster a single one ; or when you destroy an AI full stack (you spied for years and you are sure they have only 1 stack ) , then when you counter-attack their lands , a magically appearing stack full of xp comes from another galaxy to stop you etc ) .

    Anyways , i didn't wait for CA to release an announcement to realize how their AI is insanely cheating in Very hard and legendary (even in hard it does spawn not only full stack armies , but with experience , it can outproduce you with less settlement etc ) , hence i completely avoid this level difficulty now , a good AI is smart not cheating , what can you expect when a game is made within 1 year and half , of course it will look better , of course there will be some minor improvement in AI pathfinding , but expect no revolution in AI or in the genre

    People who are young didn't see the birth of video games and how it evolved since nearly 30 years now , there were some revolutions , CA was part of one when they released the 1st Shogun , but one must get real , their AI has always been a "piece of cheat " to say the least , it is CA's weakness since many years and nothing changed in S2TW basically , even though i love their games , i love Shogun and bought all their games , that doesn't prevent me from opening my eyes and be objective about the weaknesses of these games : AI


    at the end of the day , there are two kind of people enjoying this game :

    - Those who love history , immersion , realism and even level field of play with AI , where everybody is in the same conditions , justice is respected (no cheat , no unfair advantage , no frustration , no anger when playing , just 100% fun/roleplay/immersion ) , real difficulty (not artificial cheating , but intelligent AI not looking to suicide on you just to weaken the player , but to actually survive or at least cause difficulties to the player ) , believable diplomacy ( no stupid scripted AI breaking agreement just to weaken you , but an AI that actually looks at the interest of its clan when agreeing or breaking agreement/alliance , an AI that never gangs up on the player for no objective reasons (unless it is bad rep /low daymio honour etc ) and frigging stupid realm divide that absolutely ruin the game


    -Those who want arcade fun with insane challenge , crush armies every turn , dominate the map , powergame the factions , those who don't give a damn about everything i said before as long as the game looks beautiful and AI keep spamming full stacks that they can obliterate on a consistent basis , don't give a damn about historical accuracy (so will start to spam entire armies of samurais and warrior monks in the middle of Sengoku period , will blitz the AI nearly every turn , will use every exploit in the game you can imagine etc ) , will whine because there aren't enough variety with units , will want the gameplay to be faster etc , and ultimately , who will dump the game faster than the category of players above generally speaking (as they will be bored way sooner usually , as these type of players tend to jump at newer games when they're out )


    With the AI you can't please both .... Either you use an AI that has "human like " features ( like self conservation instinct ) , or you use an AI that will please the younger people who usually want hardcore challenge (kamikaze AI , all AIs are basically against the player as a general rule , realm divide that f... up any kind of diplomacy and history of friendship with other clans etc )


    The thing is it's MUCH MUCH easier to please the second category of players , because you don't need to improve the AI code that much , you just need to add script and make it cheat like a hog , and they 'll all say how " OMG , the game is hard now , amazing AI !!!"

    For the first category of players , it's grim because AI programming is a major field nowadays , one of the great challenge of scientists (in robotics , medicine research etc ) and programmers (chess , video games , military applications etc ) in the 21st century will be how to make the Artificial intelligence closer to the human brain


    So for a small company like CA , asking for a perfect AI is a lot , however asking for a smarter AI was possible for them , it's just that they either did not have the time or the will (because the game sells just as well with a mediocre AI like we have ) .

    Now the modding community won't be able to create a new AI , but with some intelligent scripting , you can make it more "human" , less kamikaze , less stupidly aggressive , more opportunistic in diplomacy (less bullish ) and last but not least , less Cheating and building credible armies (no stack full of "Dynasty warriors" like samurai heroes which completely ruin the game for all people who have an interest in the period )


    Ah well ... sorry for the long post
    Last edited by DeMolay; April 04, 2011 at 11:24 PM.

  20. #120

    Default Re: Mod to stop AI from spawning units instantly when out of your line of sight

    http://forums.totalwar.com/showthrea...ies-now-sticky

    Im right, you're all wrong.

    The AI doesnt cheat. Barack was born in America. Astronauts landed on the moon. There was no JFK conspiracy. 9/11 wasnt an inside job. Nobody is peeing in your cheerios.

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