- The Tavern -

[Diocle]

Thanks, Constantius friend! Very, very, very (3 was needed!), interesting site!!!

[Constantius]

I am sure he would, but I would not feel comfortable asking to be sponsored, if that makes sense?

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

Then I might have a word on your behalf!

[Constantius]

[Constantius]

After my failed attempt to get anyone to go to Barcelona, I now present to you http://www.limes2012.naim.bg/ any Bulgarians, or anyone from the Balkans can attend?
Looks great.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Hmm, Bulgaria, that may have some interesting things about the huns.

[Diocle]

Constantius, your conferences' locations are getting more and more difficult!! Bulgaria!!!....It is not easy, is it a UE state?....probably yes and no, like Britain!!!!!

Constantius, the sculpture in the cover page of the conference, do you now what is? It seem Roman late III century bronze sculpture?...Who is the man sculpted?.......

[First Citizen Gallienus]

I've often wondered this especially after seeing pictures of Roman reenactment groups.

I'm sure it's fairly obvious that reenactment groups, that while they portray Romans in their respective periods to the best of their ability, more often than not, you'll notice the kits and or weapons have varying degrees of difference from one another.

Differences can be seen between reenactment members in their portrayals, even though they're trying to represent a single cohort of the same legion for example. While I know that this is before the invention of 'interchangeable parts' as we know it, my question is, 'to what degree did uniformity play as a factor in the Roman army? Did just about every legionary in a legion have matching helmets and scutums?'

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

In the late army? It would have been rather uniform because of the way armor was produced. In the 1st-3rd centuries AD armor was made by private manufactures. In the 4th and 5th century it shifted to government-run warehouses. That's one of the reasons why we have such a variety of different helmets up till the 3rd century, and then you only have 3-4 types of berkasovo and intercisa helmets in the 4th century and 5th century.

[First Citizen Gallienus]

So then essentially, you wouldn't really see a unit of men (a century or cohort) wearing various different models of helmets, but for the most part just one which was issued to everyone correct?

And I suppose that would go up to as far as the 4th and 5th centuries when the empire was in decline?

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Well, If Legion X was in Region X, and Region X had supplier X, then they would have similar equipment, but it would most likely be different from Legion Y, who is in Region Y with supplier Y.

But Auxilia Palatina Unit X, Y and Z, in Regions X, Y, and Z, respectively, all have equipment from Supplier A, which is run by the governement, and have similar appearance to each other in terms of equipment.

[Diocle]

And after six months of campaign on the other end of the world?
Also today like in Viet Nam or Iraq the soldiers after some time look very different from the day in which they departed from home!

The army of Galerius when took Ctesiphon IMHO was very different from the image of the Roman soldier of the III cnetury we have in mind!

[Diocletianus]

So : In order to become a citizen you must have a mod or participate in one and you must have someone to sponser you ?

[First Citizen Gallienus]

And after six months of campaign on the other end of the world?
Also today like in Viet Nam or Iraq the soldiers after some time look very different from the day in which they departed from home!

The army of Galerius when took Ctesiphon IMHO was very different from the image of the Roman soldier of the III cnetury we have in mind!

That's not exactly what I meant.

[Joar]

So : In order to become a citizen you must have a mod

No.

or participate in one

No.

... and you must have someone to sponser you ?

Yes.

Working on a mod has nothing to do with citizenship, as far as I know. Knowing the right kind of people, however, is the trick.

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

It is impossible to know. Although MMFA posts a lot in terms which seem definitve it is mostly supposition on everyone's part. The fabricae were set up to respond to the increase in the size of the army under Diocletian and made many standard models, etc. But we have no knowledge of what actually happened on the ground in terms of unit conformity. Field armies moved great distances and were re-supplied from the nearest fabricae at the time and also from the battlefield (Ammianus for example). Old caches were used by contemporary troops (again Ammianus). Further, items would be replaced only when needed and not to create a uniform unit identity so again different models of helmets, etc. would co-exist with newer ones. The actual Roman army in any one moment in time would have a been a regional hodgepodge of helmet types. Our knowledge is hampered by the paucity of finds really which do not allow us any concrete or definitive notions of this period, alas.

I think when people post about what actually happened, it really says more about their own ideas than the truth of the time. I expect if we could go back in time and take a snapshot of a Late Roman unit marching and then forming up in a line of battle as an exercise we might be surprised by what we see - dirt, bandages, battered helmets, untidy crests, badly-painted shields, scars, patch-work uniforms, talismans, crosses, and so on. We are bedeviled by modern day notions of uniform and that 'clone' identity which our modern armies create to maintain discipline!

[wulfgar610]

It is impossible to know. Although MMFA posts a lot in terms which seem definitve it is mostly supposition on everyone's part. The fabricae were set up to respond to the increase in the size of the army under Diocletian and made many standard models,

Increase in size? You are joking of course? The best Diocletian could do was replace what was lost. Although the Roman Empire may have reached the height of its population at the end of the 2nd century. The 3rd century was a story of endless usurpation, plague, civil war, and wholesale destruction of the monetary and economic system.

At the end of that somebody thinks they might just build themselves a bigger Roman Army?

The fabricae were simply a step in direction of feudalism, the free market economy of the Julio-Claudians was in ruin.

The clue here is the interest rates, 4% at the time of the Julio-Claudians, they rose to 12% over the course of the two centuries after Nero. High rates mean the same thing they do today, very little surplus product and high prices for goods.

High rates mean the loans the Imperium took out to equip the army went from 4% to 12%. So Diocletian conscripted tradesmen to work as virtual slaves......of course realizing that acquiring skills doesn't pay the provider leads to their scarcity.

More nails in Rome's coffin from hair brained soldier Emperors.

I expect if we could go back in time and take a snapshot of a Late Roman unit marching and then forming up in a line of battle as an exercise we might be surprised by what we see - dirt, bandages, battered helmets, untidy crests, badly-painted shields, scars, patch-work uniforms, talismans, crosses, and so on. We are bedeviled by modern day notions of uniform and that 'clone' identity which our modern armies create to maintain discipline!

I expect they did their best to look spiffing when they could, just like in the Napoleonic.

Diocletian had a serious attitude to polish!

Diocletian’s “Edict of Maximum Prices” issued in 301 AD

Soldiers’ Costs:
boots, without hobnails ......................................................................................100
shoes, soldiers ...................................................................................................75
saddle ..............................................................................................................500
polisher, for a sword ..........................................................................................25
for a helmet ................................................................................................25
for an axe.....................................................................................................6
for a double axe ...........................................................................................8
for a sword scabbard ...................................................................................100

[Diocletianus]

So I understood 1/3 rigth !

[Diocle]

Diocletianus, probably it is easier become a Space marine : only few years on the most dangerous battlefields in the Galaxy in some lost world of the Terran Empire, acting like a scout or forlorn hope, then, if you survive, the techno-fathers start the treatment to transform you poor explorator in a true Space Marine!!!!

You will survive to many years of bionic implants, implanted without any kind of anesthesia, each of your bone will be cut and enlongated and metal reinforced, removed the ribs to add the 'Black carapace', the second heart will be implanted in your thorax deformed, then the bio implants in the stomach and larynx, all suffering each instant all the pain possible..because a true Space Marine has to love the pain, for the God Emperor of Holy Terra!!! In the end, if you survived, you are finally a true Space Marine!!!!!

[Diocle]

sorry duble post!!!