The CAI may be challenging, but it doesn't seem that "smart"

[Abriael]

Take in account that this is just preliminary observation, but I had quite a laugh.

First turn on Hard as Tokugawa, i have a nice juicy Oda army on my doorstep (in my territory), and a convenient free metsuke. I send him to the oda army and bribe 3 units away, then I proceed to wipe out the rest with my troops, then withdraw, planning to siege Owari (oda's capital) the next turn together with the troops I bribed.

I end the turn, and Mr. Oda, instead of taking a sensible defensive position, since he has way less troops than I do, he just grabs the few guys he had left in his castle and runs into my territory (to achieve what I don't know, considering that his army is now more or less half as mine, and if he tries to besiege me, i'll obviously crush him). Completely suicidal.

But the laughable part still has to come. I end the turn and one of the neighboring clans of Oda (with which they were already at war, making their move even more stupid) , the Saito Clan, just happily walks into the completely undefended Owari, obliterates the Oda clan, and the "invasion" army in my territory just poofs.

Come on, seriously? The ones described by the campaign as my arch enemies, and one of the most powerful clans of Japanese history obliterated on the *first* turn because they did an absolutely stupid suicide attack on their neighbor, leaving their own capital with *zero* defense to be taken by the other neighbor? Is this the extremely smart CAI boasted by CA?

Just for for testing sake, assuming it might have been just a temporary brainfart of the AI, i restart the campaign, once, twice, and again. It happens every single time.
I even try on normal to see if the AI is less stupidly suicidal, but no avail. They still move on me and the Saito walk into their capital unopposed. Try it out if you don't believe me, testing it takes more or less five minutes per attempt.

I'm not surprised that people are lamenting several clans being destroyed in the first turn. It's not because they fight epic battles beyond the fog of war. It's because they make suicide attacks on their neighbors, leaving their capital completely undefended to be taken by someone else, instead using simple, elementary logic and building their forces and consolidating their position and THEN starting to attack other clans.

Seriously, the CAI may be challenging (probably because they overly raised it's tendency to blitz), but as for being "smart", no, I don't think so, at least from what I've seen so far. In previous games generals and rulers were suicidal on the battle map. In Shogun 2 they're suicidal on the battle map AND on the campaign map. lol.

CA sure managed to teach me something about "The art of war", despite I read it multiple times. I didn't know there was a secret chapter that started with "Leave your home undefended, and then go suicide in foreign lands".
Good job

[Drtad]

I think the Oda's starting situation may have something to do with this issue. Playing as Hattori and Chosokabe (two campaigns I've explored in more depth) the Oda have been eliminated very very quickly (first few turns). They should probably get some sort of military boost to balance it out better or help them make better initial decisions.

Other than that I haven't seen any terrible CAI- in fact Takeda was a movement point away from swiping Iga province out from under me before I was able to use a ninja to stop him and send reinforcements.

[Abriael]

I think the Oda's starting situation may have something to do with this issue. Playing as Hattori and Chosokabe (two campaigns I've explored in more depth) the Oda have been eliminated very very quickly (first few turns). They should probably get some sort of military boost to balance it out better or help them make better initial decisions.

Other than that I haven't seen any terrible CAI- in fact Takeda was a movement point away from swiping Iga province out from under me before I was able to use a ninja to stop him and send reinforcements.

The problem I see is not that the CAI is necessarily bad against the player (besides being often suicidal, which many would consider being bad), but that the AI clans are completely oblivious of each other and reason like "the player isn't attacking me, then I'm completely safe".
Looking around the forums I see people talking about similar issues with other clans, so I'm assuming it's a generalized behavioir (that I personally noticed playing with the Chosokabe as well, the enemy just refuses to garrison his cities when he attacks. It was just less noticeable there because there wasn't another AI clan ready to happily walk into their city from the other direction).

Honestly I don't think a bad starting position can really be considered an excuse for the AI to decide to leave their capital (and only settlement) completely undefended when at war with two neighbors. A "smart" AI in a bad starting position should turtle.

Mind you, I'm not denying your observation. The AI is very good at attacking. But did you happen to check if they actually left a few dudes in defense? Because from what I've seen so far, the reason why they're so good at attacking is because they commit their full forces to it, leaving no one behind.

And yeah, of course finding obvious and completely replicable weaknesses of the "almighty" AI is being a "hater" right?

[TheMonkeyMon]

It's realistic for the Oda to fail 99 times out of a 100. They were in a horrible, horrible position and only thanks to the fact that they had a milliary genius as a clan leader and a ****load of luck that they got where they were. Also, consider the situation. They are absolutley surrounded by enemies more powerful than them and hostile to them. Their only chance is to blitz and quickly take a province, otherwise they would be destroyed even faster.

The problem I see is not that the CAI is necessarily bad against the player (besides being often suicidal, which many would consider being bad), but that the AI clans are completely oblivious of each other and reason like "the player isn't attacking me, then I'm completely safe".

Honestly I don't think a bad starting position can really be considered an excuse for the AI to decide to leave their capital (and only settlement) completely undefended when at war with two neighbors.

And yeah, of course finding obvious and completely replicable weaknesses of the "almighty" AI is being a hater right?

It's not just the player it's fighting against. In my Date campaign, when I betrayed the Uesugi while they were fighting the Hojo, I quickly took many cities from them while Kenshin, which I was following with a monk, was fighting the Hojo. They then made peace and came to fight me.

Don't judge your experience because of 1 situation.

[Kikoogun]

Just want to add.
The Oda just survived in history because of a suicidal Attack against the Imagawa who controlled the area, and the Tokugawa were not existing.
So it is very correct that the Oda have a hard stand at the beginning.

[Frost, colonel]

Shouldn't the op's experience have been spotted in testing????
Could CA of scripted a few garrison troops as a simple quick fix solution?

[Olligarchy]

Well I've found the Oda actions pretty realistic in a way. If you're backed into a corner with no troops, and know that your enemy will attack soon you don't want to be underneath the hammer when the blow comes. So you head off into the wilds of -his- territory and attempt to fight guerilla style until your new troops get off of the assembly line.

[Drtad]

The problem I see is not that the CAI is necessarily bad against the player (besides being often suicidal, which many would consider being bad), but that the AI clans are completely oblivious of each other and reason like "the player isn't attacking me, then I'm completely safe".

In my Hattori campaign I witnessed the exact opposite behavior. The Hatakeyama were under attack from all sides (including myself) and I was one of the clans bordering them. They had two provinces adjacent to me that weren't particularly rich (one of them had no special resources) and they were lightly defended. Using my ninja to scout, I saw that the Hatakeyama were behaving intelligently- their main province a little further west was his main province and it was being threatened by the Bessho clan. If he had moved against me, he would have surely lost his most important province. After I conquered the provinces I wanted and tried to move against the main territory, they proposed a peace treaty. I decided to accept because the Takeda were coming up fast on my flank. The Hatakeyama then used their built up defenses to destroy the Bessho and turn the tide of the war.

This is in direct contrast to previous titles, where the AI would simply refuse peace, which I think is quite suicidal.

Now I'm not going to draw any broad conclusions here. Every situation is different, and I haven't played Takeda or Tokugawa or another faction that borders Oda just yet. I'll do that later.

EDIT: Also it is true that the only reason Oda survived at all historically was a suicidal attack on Imagawa (2,500 vs. 35,000) that only worked because he caught Imagawa wayyyy off guard. That said, I would like to see them survive a tad longer, at least some of the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_okehazama

[Abriael]

It's realistic for the Oda to fail 99 times out of a 100. They were in a horrible, horrible position and only thanks to the fact that they had a milliary genius as a clan leader and a ****load of luck that they got where they were. Also, consider the situation. They are absolutley surrounded by enemies more powerful than them and hostile to them. Their only chance is to blitz and quickly take a province, otherwise they would be destroyed even faster.

Actually they have plenty troops to hold a few sieges if they turtle, and then build up from there. "blitzing" with half the troops of their enemy isn't exactly a smart choice, and you're not going to win even if you're lucky. It's not really realistic if the supposed military genius behaves as a total moron, isn't it?

[TheMonkeyMon]

Actually they have plenty troops to hold a few sieges if they turtle, and then build up from there. "blitzing" with half the troops of their enemy isn't exactly a smart choice, and you're not going to win even if you're lucky. It's not really realistic if the supposed military genius behaves as a total moron, isn't it?

Nobunaga Oda wasn't Daiymo when the game started.

And how exactly was he going to fight off the Saito, Tokugawa, and Imagawa? You play an Oda campaign and try turtling, I'd be eager to see the results.

[Abriael]

Nobunaga Oda wasn't Daiymo when the game started.

And how exactly was he going to fight off the Saito, Tokugawa, and Imagawa? You play an Oda campaign and try turtling, I'd be eager to see the results.

You can definitely turtle. You win the first defensive siege, and then you'll have a nice, juicy undefended target ripe for the taking.
But even if the AI doesn't want to turtle they could at least try and go against something that can be taken, not a castle with 10 units inside, when they have 6.

The situation in which AIs that are faced with two conflicting situations just explode should be just in movies

In any case the AI should try to ensure it's own survival first. In any case, it doesn't happen only with the Oda.

[Jack Lusted]

In any case the AI should try to ensure it's own survival first. In any case, it doesn't happen only with the Oda.

If it did that, it would take a long time for any AI faction to expand as they would all be trying to out build each other before attacking. Yes a lot of clans die at the moment early on, but you will also see some powerful clans emerge fast as they take regions. It makes for a much more challenging campaign.

Personally I generally leave 90% of my provinces unguarded due to the cost of garrisoning them. I don't have enough money to have 3/4 stacks running around and powerful fleets.

[visser300]

so you guys saying that Oda cannot survive without commanding of human player???? Hey Abriael, why don't ya play Oda with legendary difficult and get back here to show your result. lol lol lol

[Falconpilot]

Well the CAI isn't retarded, but it just moves more agressively, I played now 4 campaigns (2 single player one as takeda and uesugi) and 2 MP co-up campaigns (with takeda and Chosokabe) and in EVERY campaign I get immediately attacked by my arch enemy and after like 4-5 turns there are allready 2-3 clans destroyed, the oda is allways among them.

This isn't a bad thing though, it is normal for one clan to grow in strength and easily conquer other clans, in one of my MP co-up campaigns me and my friend are facing the ikko ikki which has 7 regions while we only have 4 combined. Imo it adds to the challenge, I rather face 1 big enemy than 7 clans which have 1 region and aren't a threat.

However I do agree that certain clans shouldn't attack, attacking with your full army in a region of a clan which has more units is just stupid, especially in the beginning when numbers are important (everybody has ashigaru then). But like many said the oda have no other option, if they turtle maybe they can beat of 1 attack, but then there will be an army from the second enemy. With much luck they might survive this to, but then they have a third enemy and they lose anyway so from their point of view I fully understand that rushing forward is the only option if they want to survive.

Also may I point out that in Japan it was much more honourable to face an opponent in the field instead of camping in a castle and since CA told us that the AI will behave more in japanese style I think it's pretty good

Lets not get started on the BAI

[visser300]

If it did that, it would take a long time for any AI faction to expand as they would all be trying to out build each other before attacking. Yes a lot of clans die at the moment early on, but you will also see some powerful clans emerge fast as they take regions. It makes for a much more challenging campaign.

Personally I generally leave 90% of my provinces unguarded due to the cost of garrisoning them. I don't have enough money to have 3/4 stacks running around and powerful fleets.

Yeah, that's def. true for most average players and I make sure that CA created the game for average player, not for some kick-ass. If you are kick-ass, get online and play MP battles and your ass will be grabbed by other legendary players.

This AI is hard enough for me and I'm still trying to win it.

[Abriael]

If it did that, it would take a long time for any AI faction to expand as they would all be trying to out build each other before attacking. Yes a lot of clans die at the moment early on, but you will also see some powerful clans emerge fast as they take regions. It makes for a much more challenging campaign.

Personally I generally leave 90% of my provinces unguarded due to the cost of garrisoning them. I don't have enough money to have 3/4 stacks running around and powerful fleets.

Well, we'll have to disagree on the fact that it's a good idea, in order to make the AI challenging, to make it behave unrealistically, with clans that just step aside and let other clans conquer them. Sounds quite artificial to me. If the AI was that good, it shouldn't rely on "tricks" to go by.

The AI is visible to the player in a lot of situations, and if it behaves in an excessively illogical way, it honestly spoils the fun.

Yeah, that's def. true for most average players and I make sure that CA created the game for average player, not for some kick-ass. If you are kick-ass, get online and play MP battles and your ass will be grabbed by other legendary players.

This AI is hard enough for me and I'm still trying to win it.

I'm far from kick-ass, my friend. Quite the contrary, i'm quite bad at RTS games normally, and I tend to play on the lower spectrum of the difficuly level. I don't even have that much of a problem with the AI being rather weak. What I have a problem with is the AI behaving in a completely illogical way.
That's not the AI being better than it was. It's the AI clans collaborating with each other to trick the player into believing that it's good.

[TheMonkeyMon]

Well, we'll have to disagree on the fact that it's a good idea, in order to make the AI challenging, to make it behave unrealistically, with clans that just step aside and let other clans conquer them. Sounds quite artificial to me. If the AI was that good, it shouldn't rely on "tricks" to go by.

The AI is visible to the player in a lot of situations, and if it behaves in an excessively illogical way, it honestly spoils the fun.

In any case, since you're here, you may want to let Craig know that he isn't doing CA a good service by charging head on into customers that dare to express criticism, accusing them of "trolling", "baiting" and "bashing" on an official forum, then deleting his rather polite subsequent post (there was no insulting, no criticism, nothing. Just the encouragement to try the situation for himself and report to the team for possible fixing. Absolutely nothing that broke any forum rule) because he HAS to have the last word and doesn't want to look bad, and finally banning him.
Honestly, this is the very first time I see a developer on an official forum blowing like that in the face of a legit customer expressing legit criticism.

It doesn't give a good image of CA, makes it seem that you guys have something to hide, and for sure doesn't encourage constructive communication.

I understand that he might be on edge because of the (justified) criticism about the AA and DX situation, but he can't blame anyone else than himself for that.

Yet again: What else do you want the Oda to do? They have 1, poor, province. They are surrounded by powerful enemies. How exactly are they going to guard their capital without turtling the entire game? Look at history: Oda Nobunaga's army was TINY compared to his neighbors. He just got extremley lucky, and he rode that momentum to power. Crist, this was a civil war after all. You won't see much turtling if it wants to be the slightest bit realistic. Power was constantly shifting, and the Oda are a great example of that. How is it illogical for the AI to try for one last grasp at a win instead of just sitting in its castle and dieing?

[Googoo24]

The a.i. is weak? So I take it you're breezing through the game?

[TheMonkeyMon]

The a.i. is weak? So I take it you're breezing through the game?

Did you even read the topic title? He said it's challenging. He just doesn't agree with the method of doing so. Please at least read a post before bashing.

[Jack Lusted]

Well, we'll have to disagree on the fact that it's a good idea, in order to make the AI challenging, to make it behave unrealistically, with clans that just step aside and let other clans conquer them. Sounds quite artificial to me. If the AI was that good, it shouldn't rely on "tricks" to go by.

The AI is visible to the player in a lot of situations, and if it behaves in an excessively illogical way, it honestly spoils the fun.

The other factions aren't letting other clans conquer them, they are all trying to expand and take regions.

As it behaving excessively illogically, it is exactly how I play Oda. Hell as tokugawa i leave my capital completely vulnerable early on to try and outflank the Oda.

That's not the AI being better than it was. It's the AI clans collaborating with each other to trick the player into believing that it's good.

And they are not, every AI clan is trying to expand, sometimes that leaves them vulnerable to others. There is no collusion going on between the AI.