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Thread: The Hattori Campaign Guide

  1. #101

    Default Re: The Hattori Campaign Guide

    very good.

  2. #102

    Default Re: The Hattori Campaign Guide

    Just my two cents and first post:
    Completed VH/VH campaign a week ago (after 5 restarts) with these guys and here are my reflections that coincide with what others have said and what I thought helped me finally lay a foundation to work with.

    1) Pray the Asai stay alive as long as possible (~7 turns for me IIRC). I allied with them Turn 1 and stuck with our alliance. I think this allowed my game's Asai to actually move out and attack in the field against both Sakai and Ikko Ikki. This bought time to focus matters on Tsutsui and Hatekeyama. Note I did not have a stack near Omi's fort. In my victory campaign, I ended up taking Omi after I had cleared the peninsula.

    2) Adopt general, marry Kitabatake ASAP. Children used as political assests saved me and helped me maintain good relations with the Hojo who eventually established my east front around Owari/Mino. Note like others have said, Kitabatake DoW'ed not that much later after marriage. Still, idea is to have more kids.

    3) Keep Eastern power happy, focus on west. Again, I can't stress enough this. I had Hojo "Threat of Attacks" occur 4 times in my game. Fortunately, I did have my economy developed by then (pure tax, no trade nodes) that I could reforge the alliance numerous times.

    4) Eastern Power, pray he be stable and not a minor clan. I had one game with Takeda the East power, allied him, marriage, etc. And still DoW'ed me. Ended that campaign around turn 30 or so. I feel having Oda would be the most ideal neighbor, but in my restarts, I kept seeing Oda eventually fall to the Hojo/Takeda/Imagawa triumvirate. Playing the center like Ikko Ikki you really need stability on the Eastern front.

    5) Kisho training < Increased upkeep per unit. Just my opinion, though I have used the ability a lot. This does often come at the cost of the general being out of position, but great for taking provinces where the keep has only retainers/small force and the main force is the reinforcing army. Allows you to rush the keep, take it, and fight a defensive siege battle. Plus, that general out of position and so far away from his troops is already out in the open and the AI LOVES to divert forces to chase a lone unit that's not in the fort, thus buying even more time for the rest.

  3. #103

    Default Re: The Hattori Campaign Guide

    Some excellent thoughts/ideas/experience given on campaign play with this clan. I just started using Hattori last night on Hard difficulty and I keep getting my ass handed to me after a few years into the game. Same story as some others.... Asai is made of paper and fall to Ikko quickly, and it seems I can't forge any real alliances early on. Certainly don't have enough money to buy an alliance. Before long I've got every clan in the area attacking me with larger and larger armies and can't seem to make any headway. Perhaps I need to offer up my only son as a hostage to buy an alliance? I think an equally frustrating factor is that I have yet to even take over a port to perhaps grab a trade node or two. I'm half tempted to attempt this one on normal difficulty, but I am a glutton for punishment.

    The key to this one seems to be diplomacy in the early stages. You can defend a castle with 1 YA and a pack of junior mints, but the nonstop waves are just to much to handle.

  4. #104

    Default Re: The Hattori Campaign Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerDen View Post
    Perhaps I need to offer up my only son as a hostage to buy an alliance?
    If you offer your son as a hostage he is only imprisioned for 8 turns. Ive been using it a lot and seems to work pretty well.

  5. #105
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    Default Re: The Hattori Campaign Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by CptAustus View Post
    If you offer your son as a hostage he is only imprisioned for 8 turns. Ive been using it a lot and seems to work pretty well.
    I have been only bad experience about offer son as a hostage for alliance. Always it is been killed during my allies betray me and kill him and i make facepalm for that when I see my one of my son is killed.

  6. #106

    Default Re: The Hattori Campaign Guide

    I've just started my first campaign with Hattori and I completely agree that Omi should be left alone. It is too exposed and a high value target for Ikko Ikko/Oda/Tokugawa. I proposed an alliance with the Shogunate in order to secure indefinite military access. This then gives you far superior mobility coming and going from Iga - which is otherwise very hard to get to slogging through the forest. Turn 2 you should be able to knock out Tsutsui as they don't have much in the way of an army to start with - don't worry about dragging Hatakeyama into a fight - they are next Build a few more Yari ashigaru to restore losses after sabotaging something for the cheap recruitment. Kii is an absolute vital province to take as it is such a cash cow and doesn't need looking after, this should be your next priority - you will probably end up with Kawachi aswell - which while not a great province is still useful for building a farm and market for another Metsuke. If you rank your ninja up as an assassin you ought to be able to bump of any Hatakeyama generals in which case their pure Ashigaru armies are very easy to beat even if you are outnumbered.

    At this stage a couple of comments on Hattori units. The upkeep is stupidly high - on Legendary your Yari Ashigaru cost 122 per turn which is just ridiculous really. The Kisho training is good though and you need to exploit it to get value. When fighting a battle I typically use the Kisho deployment to flank the enemy or secure high ground which will allow me to engage on favourable terms. You general will need to ride to meet up with your Kisho deployed troops but that it not a problem. Another thing to remember is that Cavalry, and Warrior Monks do not receive Kisho training - so their upkeep costs are the same as normal clans. I made a conscious effort to include a lot of cavalry in my armies for this reason - a unit of Light Horse costs the same upkeep as Hattori Yari Ashigaru - so use these. A typical early game battle plan for me will be to deploy a block of Yari Ashigaru with some Bow in a flanking position - supported by a unit of perhaps Katana Samurai. The general then goes down with 2-3 Light horse. As the infantry engage the enemy from the flank the enemy line will be forced to turn, resulting in a disjointed response to your attack, and exposing their flank/rear to your general + light cav reserve. Key thing to watch however is that without your general your Ashigaru units have very poor morale. Keep to high ground if possible OR, (what I did) recruit them from Yamato with the +3 morale upgrade.

    Final comment is on Night attack - this is an amazingly useful ability. You can use it to sneak a castle out from under the nose of an army if it is sitting next to, rather than in the castle as they will not be able to reinforce. You can also use it to deal with multiple stacks of doom by engaging one at a time.

  7. #107
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    Default Re: The Hattori Campaign Guide

    So I'm kinda struggling in my current H/H Hattori campaign. Early on I got trade rights and alliances with the Asai and Ashikaga, beat both the Tsutsui and Hatakeyama, and when the Kitabatake declared war on me I conquered them too. 8 turns in, I had everything from Settsu to Ise, but I'd expanded so rapidly that I had been putting all of my money into ashigaru for garrisons. The Bessho invaded and I managed to take their castle by night attack and vassalize them- but now I'm at war with the Takeda (who stretch from Omi to North Shinano) and the Imagawa (who have everything between Owari and Suruga). Both have full stacks with lots of samurai units, and I'm stuck with maybe 3 or 4 samurai in my whole empire. Even with 6 provinces, I can't afford to develop my infrastructure or recruit units very quickly, yet I don't have numerical superiority over these samurai armies from clans with fewer provinces. What am I doing wrong here? o_O

    @BadgerDen: I had the same problem with the Asai on my first attempt, but it's worth it to keep your daimyo and some Ashigaru close by to help them beat the first Ikko attack. Giving them a little help early on kept them alive until the Takeda invaded.
    Last edited by O'Hea; April 11, 2012 at 02:36 PM.

  8. #108
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    Default Re: The Hattori Campaign Guide

    I am doing a campaign on hard/very hard with hatori. I find that they are one of the hardest clans to play as. I took yamato and kii as my first to provinces, then setsu and 2 other provinces I can't remember the name of. I allied with the shogunate. By biggest mistake was taking omi. Taking omi pissed off the ikko ikko, oda and another clan. The clan I can't remember the name of attacked me first, so I took their only province. Then the ikko ikki attacked so I lost the province. After becoming allies with tekeda I was able to attack to ikko ikki again. 4 heroic victories later I had echizen and the province west of it. After that I allied with tokugawa and was attacked by the oda and imagawa. I took mino and after hold it against there whole army with around 700 troops I took odwari. I made peace next turn and the amako attacked me next but because of my agents I was able to bribe, assassinate and sabotage my way to victory. I am 1 or 2 provinces away from realm divide which is bad. In te west chosokabe is my dieing ally but they are facing the Ito and amoko who both hate me. Tokugawa is at war with Usegi, Hojo and oda but allied with me tekeda and date. The main reasons I still alive are: My original Dyamino died and the new one makes babies faster than a rabbit. I can marry people into my allies and use the Male kids are bargaining chips. Second is my ninja's I have my ninja's trained to level 5 from the infamous something district + smuggling network. Third is my battle strategy. I deploy as close as possible with my army and attack, then bring cavalry in to do hammer and anvil. The Kisho ninjas come up Ning to use bombs and try to take out generals. Works every time.

  9. #109

    Default Re: The Hattori Campaign Guide

    I like playing Hattori. It's a good clan in a position that has it's pros and cons.

    First thing I usually do is make allies with the shogun and get infinite military access so I have a fast regeneration province to work with. I get trade with asai to keep good relations with them, and send my ninja north to mess with Ikko Ikki. I stall their army long enough for Asai to build up a force, but unfortunately they usually take their sweet time training troops. This lets me focus on my surroundings.

    Kitabatake always allies with Oda, which ruins any chance of good relations with them. I start off with past friendship, and getting rid of their daimyo would get rid of that 20 point diplomacy penalty, but instead they are always bound to be a thorn in my side. Sometimes Imagawa kills them off, though, and my chances of good relations depend on whether or not they ally with Oda and keep their alliance with Takeda.

    One of my biggest problems is relations, and a general lack of imported wealth. Sea trade nodes are far away, aside from the warhorse node if I can get a northern port province. Trade is difficult, and which clan will rise in power to my west is inconsistent. To the east is usually Takeda, but sometimes other clans like Hojo. If anyone has any good tips on getting and keeping trade, I'm all ears.

    My military strength normally comes from the holy ground provinces, where I train troops with high morale, and make use of agents since I have all the specialties to train higher level agents right away.

    The middle of a map is almost never an easy location, but I really like the clan bonuses and the provinces aren't bad for the most part. There is that one landlocked province with no specialty and barren land that I sometimes let fall to rebellion so I can train my troops by killing the rebels.

    I actually with the settlements around central Japan like Settsu and Owari were a little bit better place, because then it would be impossible for enemy troops to walk around them due to the mountains or river. They would have to go through in order to get into the central area, which would make for excellent borders. It would probably only require slight location shifts.
    Last edited by Chad29; July 17, 2012 at 11:07 PM.

  10. #110

    Default Re: The Hattori Campaign Guide

    I'm trying a strange opening with the Hattori. Ally with the Asai (Omi province), trade for border passage rights, and run straight through their land to attack Ikko Ikki. Constantly build units in Iga to reinforce and defend Iga until you have a foothold in Ikko lands. I managed to take both Ikko provinces - wiping them out entirely - and deliberately leave Iga undermanned so my capital moved to Echizen.

    So far it's working out well, with one small problem: Takeda/Hojo/Data control everything to the east. Oda, Tokugawa and Uesugi have all been wiped out.

    Two provinces with fertile or better soil, blacksmith and fletcher, and a port (that is now a nanban trade port)? Yeah. Once you take Kaga and burn down the Jodo Shinshu temple, the populace will start to convert back to Shinto-Buddhism, but in the near term you'll have a huge army present to repress the unhappy populace.

    I was playing on Hard, but toned it down a notch when I returned from a long break.
    Last edited by Charsi; October 18, 2012 at 11:01 AM.

  11. #111

    Default Re: The Hattori Campaign Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Charsi View Post
    I'm trying a strange opening with the Hattori. Ally with the Asai (Omi province), trade for border passage rights, and run straight through their land to attack Ikko Ikki. Constantly build units in Iga to reinforce and defend Iga until you have a foothold in Ikko lands. I managed to take both Ikko provinces - wiping them out entirely - and deliberately leave Iga undermanned so my capital moved to Echizen.
    You can trade 10 turns of access for 5 turns of access with Asai without an alliance or with. Immediately take your entire force and head for echizen. The Ikko's will attack with their main army then you take echizen and immediately move to take Kaga, use your ninja to sabotage their castles. As soon as you take Kaga tax emempt it and move as many troops back to Echizen as possible because it will rebel. Either let Tsutsui take Iga or let it rebel. That way it's still early in the campaign before the powerhouse clans get well established.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  12. #112

    Default Re: The Hattori Campaign Guide

    Sounds like you did it FAR quicker than I did. I got Echizen quickly but mucked around for a few turns before eradicating Kaga, and Ikko wiped out the Asai and continued to harass me from the south for a bit.

    It honestly makes me want to start over

  13. #113

    Default Re: The Hattori Campaign Guide

    Has anyone considered essentially 'emigrating' to Shikoku? In my Hattori campaign the Hatakeyama took Settsu, then I declared war on the Tsutsui, causing Hatakeyama and Kitabatake to join my enemy. Yamato fell quite quickly, followed swiftly by Kii, Kawachi and Settsu. (I had a trade agreement with Asai but not an alliance). Would it be theoretically possible to abandon most of Kansai (maybe keep Settsu, Yamato and either Iga or Kii - one for each kind of agent) and re-establish yourself on Shikoku?Also, a word of advice for budding Hattori - DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE HATANO. (they're in Tamba, north of Settsu). They steamrollered me on Normal. Yes - on Normal. I used to control all of southern Kansai, and now I only have Iga, Owari (also at war with Oda, almost a full stack of ashi's as garrison) and Kii (for some reason, the Hatano army took Settsu, Kawachi and Yamato and completely ignored Kii despite it being defenceless). I managed to incite a Buddhist revolt in Yamato... only for Kitabatake to come in from Ise and take it while I was still holding off the Hatano stack in Iga. So, although the Hatano's main claim to fame in history is losing to Oda at an opportune moment, they can, and do, bite.

  14. #114

    Default Re: The Hattori Campaign Guide

    Thanks for the guide! Need to try that out

  15. #115

    Default Re: The Hattori Campaign Guide

    My approach in playing hattori but with mods that makes a season to 12 month and add more skillpoints mod is to focus on chi and improving your ninja agents. Yes ninja agents.

    Seriously i conquered 10 provinces without fighting a major battle. I guess in my current campaign i fought 4 major battles. How to do it. In my campaign i focus on west. I hate focusing on east due of alot of big great clan especially Takeda but i need some specialty building. So i conquered alot of ninja village but i wait for opportunity. As i said i focus on the west so i conquered Hatakeyama with small forces. How did i did it simple make your ninja sabotage their main forces as of now i have two exp ninja. So sabotaging their army is so easy and i move my bandit ashigaru army conquering some province with no armies on it. Also I continue to recruiting ninja agent and make a decent army to destroy a full stack of samurai. Luckily winter came and destroy half of Hatakeyama forces and i moved in and killed the daimyo and issue peace.

    Proving you can destroy a clan by using your ninja agents. Seriously playing as hattori you really need to avoid alot of battles due recruiting units are expensive and their upkeep but using ninja agents makes the game alot easier. Start sabotage Ai army and start blitzkrieg

  16. #116

    Default Re: The Hattori Campaign Guide

    The Hattori is my favorite clan. Love those little Iga ninja bastards. I also like how they have properly made their samurai and ashigaru have geurilla training because it is suiting to the real life shinobi, which were people with covert ops training. After several campaigns with them I have learned a few things to help you play this clan if you want to play them like the ninja clan they are.

    Starting Strategy

    First off, your home province Iga has crap farmland, is small and only one way in that doesn't involve going through a lot of forest and even then the way in can be easily set for an ambush. It has a ninja specialty building for training better agents and Kisho ninja. When you get around to building that up you want to go for a Ninjutsu School/Ninja Clan Fortress for two reasons. 1.) The extra recruitment slot for training units and 2.) Iga has crap economy.

    In your starting region there are 4 provinces you want to take. Two are identical, Omi and Kii. Both have Very Fertile farmland and Ninja specialty buildings. One of those two you will want to place your Burakumin Village/Smuggling Network. You only need one region with that building and this is where you will place your Infamous Mizu Shobai District for the 25% tax increase and the +2 for agents. Combined with the Smuggling Network's 1000 koku income and the +2 to agents you will make a cashcow out of the region plus be able to recruit rank 5 ninja Agents. Since you can only have 5 ninja tops there is no reason for more than one Smuggling Network. I choose Omi for it's central region to get my ninja agents back in action faster if I lose one. With the high income from farms this makes Omi and ideal location. Add in a Merchant Guild to create more income plus a metsuke with as much +X to Overseeing Towns as possible. The other two regions are near identical, Ise and Yamato. Both have Fertile farmlands and Monk specialty buildings but Ise has a port.

    Now everyone says to ally with Asai because they are your friends. Forget alliances with anyone you start near except for the Ashikaga. You want the Ashikaga to be your friends because they have everything built up so with Military Access you can replenish your troops very fast spending one or two turns in their province. You don't want the Asai to become strong and be your friends. You want Asai to get stomped out by the Ikko Ikki if you can because they will ally themselves with Ashikaga and you don't want to be at war with them early. My advice is to take your general Momochi Taketoshi and go straight for Yamato and take out the Tsutsui and trigger a war with the Hatakeyama too. The Hatakeyama will start at war with Miyoshi so they will be pressed between two factions at war with them. Meanwhile start training those ashigaru to give you a second army for your Daimyo to lead. Take Yamato by turn two because turn 3 gets you the mission to take another territory to get Inspired Endeavours.

    After that take the army out of the castle in Yamato and go straight after the Kitabatake. When you get to the castle hold and wait for them to sally out because you will defend from a ridge that is perfect for defending from. There is one way up front in the middle and ways up the side. Set a Yari Ashigaru here in guard stance and spear wall to take the charge. You couldn't ask for a better place to defend from. Plus it has trees to help hide and with arrows. Just let them come and then hammer and anvil them by coming down from the sides with your other Yari Ashigaru and Samurai plus your General. This will get you a bonus to income with Inspired Endeavours plus a port for trade.

    With the army your Daimyo has move to defend the castle in Yamato because if the Hatakeyama come they will come for there because they can't go through Yamashiro province because they won't be at war with the Ashikaga or have military access. Eitherway, after this you will rush to take Kii and Kawachi. In the first 5 turns or so you should have 4 provinces now.

    Now with the Abundant Supplies from sabotaging a building in the first turn. I usually will just keep starting the campaign over to get it first try and with Inspired Endeavors giving you cheaper troops and then income from your buildings you should have some decent money by the time the Inspired Endeavors wears off if you didn't put any money into building and two rank 2 Generals. Then you can start building your farms, stealth chain and monk chain buildings. In Kawachii I'd just put some kind of dojo or market building but it's up to you. But this gets you 2 ninja and 2 monks to go on to deal with the Ikko Ikki and the rest of the campaign.

    Now I'm sure you're reading this and thinking, why not have an alliance with the Asai? Because you want his territory and you don't want him to be strong. You want all 3 ninja provinces because that is your specialty. If you're afraid of being attacked or having to face the Ikko Ikki or other clans then pack up and go home because this game is just not for you.

    Also,on a side note, I would not go for School of Shinobi until you have a decent income. The early Kisho Ninja is nice but very costly upkeep wise.
    Battle Strategies


    Kisho ninja are your special unit along with your other units plus the Hattori are prime for running ninja and monks as a combination. Even Agents wise you have Monks for taking down pesky Metsuke. On the battlefield you will likely want to use your Kisho Ninja because why else would you play the Masters of Darkness? With the Sengoku Jidai unit pack DLC you get another stealthy unit, Bandits. These guys are perfect for combining with your Kisho Ninja. They can sneak just as well but instead of having bombs, melee and stealth they have bows and fire arrows. They can fire their bows and remain hidden and if you want to really put it hard to the enemy try taking 2-3 Kisho Ninja and 2 Bandits to launch bombs and fire arrows out of nowhere on them while your warrior monks, ashigaru and samurai face them from the front.

    Now with your Kisho Ninja I want you to learn this one important fact. These guys ARE NOT GENERAL ASSASSINS. Nothing will get them killed faster than trying to sneak up on guys with armor and horses and try to lob bombs at them. 99 out of 100 times the General will survive and run away or close in and kill your ninja fast. Instead these guys are your spec ops guys. They cause chaos on the battlefield with their bombs and are ideal for getting into castles fast with their climbing and stealth ability to capture towers and doors. In those big castles with a light garrison you can have them climb in to the unprotected center and steal the gates and towers if you move fast while making your main force hit the walls and lock them out of their own central defense.



    From there, the game is up to you but that's my tidbits of wisdom for the Masters of Darkness.


  17. #117

    Default Re: The Hattori Campaign Guide

    Oh, one more thing I forgot to add. I put all my Ninja Agents down the spy tree. 3 dots in Spy and 3 dots in Criminal Contacts gives you +25 increase to line of sight and makes your Spy Networks huge. By the time your agents are rank 5 their sabotage and assassination chances are fairly high plus with 1 dot in Noble Bandit and Defender of the People you do all your actions for free at rank 6. I leave most of the assassination work to my Geisha anyways. As you fight and take new territories whichever ninja you have nearby will give you an excellent view of the map to know where their armies and agents are at. This to me is worth far more than having an adept assassin or saboteur.

  18. #118

    Default Re: The Hattori Campaign Guide

    I must be on my fifth try with the Hattori, very hard difficulty. I've only completed the Uesugi on normal and Shimazu on hard before. The Ikko Ikki pissed me off so much that I've adopted a rather queer strategy for the Hattori: ally with Ashikaga and Asai, get military access, and move through Asai territory to Echizen and stomp out the Ikko Ikki immediately before they grow, take their turf and make it my base. I don't care much about losing Iga.

    Currently I'm a small number of turns into the game. I've killed an Ikko Ikki army on the field, taken Echizen and repelled another Ikko Ikki assault on it, as well an a rebel assault on it (because of the damn Ikko religion). I now have my entire army in Echizen, which is roughly 50:50 yari ashigaru and bowmen plus the starting unit of yari samurai, totalling perhaps 12 units. My finances were in the red for a turn but have recovered after I merged some battered units into new ones. I still have Iga even though there is absolutely no one there, this is because I managed not only to ally with the Tsuitsui, but also make them break their alliance with the Hatekayama. The Uesugi are now in the Ikko province west of Echizen, though I'm unsure who controls it, Ikko or Uesugi, though I'd bet on the Uesugi as Ikko didn't have much of an army left after sending it all my way to die. Meanwhile the Sakai killed Asai, so Iga may fall to them...

    Now I just have to fortify Echizen properly and expand a bit around it. It has very fertile soil and a port so hopefully I can stabilize my rather unstable situation financially and militarily.

  19. #119

    Default Re: The Hattori Campaign Guide

    Without major mods and at Legendary I have to say Hattori are hardest faction - even more so than the Uesugi (who at least have the Sado option very early in game).

    The problem being the massive added cost of kisho training which while hugely useful in field and I assume MP battles is is much, much less so in an SP campaign where so many battles are either sieges or will be auto-calced,

    In 7 or 8 attempts the best I've ever managed is a 6-province empire from Iga to Kaga plus Sado which was then instantly swarmed by stack after stack of Hojo, Takeda and Imagawa (who in almost all of these games have ended up firmly allied and dominating the whole east half of the map).

    And it's not just position - Oda are as badly or worse (given that they are at war with 3 neighbouring clans) situated but can spam their superior and cheap ashigaru and blitz across map.

    Spam Hattori asghigaru and all you are looking at is early bankruptcy.

    This will actually be only clan I've given up on before winning at Legendary.

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