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Thread: Shogun 2 and Unit Detail settings.

  1. #1

    Default Shogun 2 and Unit Detail settings.

    Images below.

    This first picture is an Ashigaru unit with Unit Detail settings on low.


    This second picture is another Ashigaru unit with Until Detail settings on Medium.


    Notice the incredibly higher poly count, fully modeled eyes and jaw + teeth on the second image. Also, to note, the eyes blink and the mouths move on these soldiers.

    Now, my problem here is this. I have an i7 940, 570gtx and 7gb of ram. I can run this game with every setting on Ultra save for a few trivial things. But the moment that I set Unit Detail on Medium, High or Ultra, there is such a substantial loss of framerate when I zoom in on any military unit in-game, that it practically forces me to play with the detail on low.

    I don't mind my men not looking all glossy, shiny and good. But I can't stand the way they look with the setting on Low.

    Why is there no middle-ground between these models? I can run a battle in Medieval 2 with THOUSANDS of soldiers with no issue whatsoever and they ALL look good. Why not here?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Shogun 2 and Unit Detail settings.

    I like how they look on low, feels like an anime .

  3. #3
    Birk's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 and Unit Detail settings.

    They look much happier with low settings

  4. #4

    Default Re: Shogun 2 and Unit Detail settings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kredios View Post
    Images below.

    This first picture is an Ashigaru unit with Unit Detail settings on low.


    This second picture is another Ashigaru unit with Until Detail settings on Medium.


    Notice the incredibly higher poly count, fully modeled eyes and jaw + teeth on the second image. Also, to note, the eyes blink and the mouths move on these soldiers.

    Now, my problem here is this. I have an i7 940, 570gtx and 7gb of ram. I can run this game with every setting on Ultra save for a few trivial things. But the moment that I set Unit Detail on Medium, High or Ultra, there is such a substantial loss of framerate when I zoom in on any military unit in-game, that it practically forces me to play with the detail on low.

    I don't mind my men not looking all glossy, shiny and good. But I can't stand the way they look with the setting on Low.

    Why is there no middle-ground between these models? I can run a battle in Medieval 2 with THOUSANDS of soldiers with no issue whatsoever and they ALL look good. Why not here?
    Shogun 2 is not Medieval 2. it would make sense that it does not run as well as a 4 year old game.

    I run a HD 6970. And I got good framerate in the demo. It slowed down a bit for me when I zoom in, but that's only natural. The biggest problem I have that the game actually slows down for me as more men die, this is totally the opposite one would expect. I think there's a memory leak with the bodies.

    Anyhow, a 570 should be more than able to deliver playable framerates up close on ultra settings.

    A loss of framerate when zoomed in seems normal though. Maybe what you see is natural but just annoys you alot.

  5. #5
    Noif de Bodemloze's Avatar The Protector of Art
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 and Unit Detail settings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kredios View Post
    Images below.

    This first picture is an Ashigaru unit with Unit Detail settings on low.


    This second picture is another Ashigaru unit with Until Detail settings on Medium.
    Ehhh... Shemales, Granny and now zombies

  6. #6

    Default Re: Shogun 2 and Unit Detail settings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maizel View Post
    Shogun 2 is not Medieval 2. it would make sense that it does not run as well as a 4 year old game.

    I run a HD 6970. And I got good framerate in the demo. It slowed down a bit for me when I zoom in, but that's only natural. The biggest problem I have that the game actually slows down for me as more men die, this is totally the opposite one would expect. I think there's a memory leak with the bodies.

    Anyhow, a 570 should be more than able to deliver playable framerates up close on ultra settings.

    A loss of framerate when zoomed in seems normal though. Maybe what you see is natural but just annoys you alot.
    Please, take notice of the framerate counter at the top right of the pictures below.

    This first shot is a top-down view with all settings, including Unit Detail on Ultra. No DoF, Distortion or SSAO. Changing Unit Detail had no effect upon framerate from this angle.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    This second image is a close-up view behind an Ashigaru unit with Unit Detail on Ultra.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    This third image is the same angle but with Unit Detail on Medium.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    This last image is the same angle but with Unit Detail on Low.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Loss of framerate on a zoom-in is normal, I understand this. But 30-45 FPS drop is just far too noticeable, especially considering how clunky and slow the camera becomes when zoomed in on the action. It's hard to watch something in the 20 fps range. It's also really odd to look at models that have less than 20 polygons and noodle arms. (exaggeration)

  7. #7

    Default Re: Shogun 2 and Unit Detail settings.

    Setting your unit detail up by a notch adds massive amounts to the number of triangles that your computer is rendering.

    Let's say (hypothetical), on low, each soldier is made of 2,000 triangles. And you have 1 unit of 160 soldiers.
    Your computer is rendering a max of 320,000 triangles, just for the units. Of course, realistically, it's a bit less - there are sprites, and many units are off screen etc. etc. Don't forget, the computer is also rendering the rest of the scene as well, obviously.

    Now let's say you're on medium. Hypothetically, let's say that this doubles the triangle count of each soldier. So 1 soldier = 4,000 tris. And 1 unit of 160 soldiers = 640,000 tris. Just for the units, like above.

    On high, let's say it's triple of low. 1 soldier = 6,000; 1 unit = 960,000 tris.

    On ultra, let's say it's four times of low. 1 soldier = 8,000; 1 unit = 1,280,000 tris.

    Don't forget, as we move up the notches, the draw distance for the high res meshes becomes longer.

    Setting further middlegrounds is unfeasible for the dev team - that's a lot of LODs in the first place, they don't need to add even more. That would just take ages, and increase the size of the game manifold.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Shogun 2 and Unit Detail settings.

    Quote Originally Posted by indian_boy90 View Post
    Setting your unit detail up by a notch adds massive amounts to the number of triangles that your computer is rendering.

    Let's say (hypothetical), on low, each soldier is made of 2,000 triangles. And you have 1 unit of 160 soldiers.
    Your computer is rendering a max of 320,000 triangles, just for the units. Of course, realistically, it's a bit less - there are sprites, and many units are off screen etc. etc. Don't forget, the computer is also rendering the rest of the scene as well, obviously.

    Now let's say you're on medium. Hypothetically, let's say that this doubles the triangle count of each soldier. So 1 soldier = 4,000 tris. And 1 unit of 160 soldiers = 640,000 tris. Just for the units, like above.

    On high, let's say it's triple of low. 1 soldier = 6,000; 1 unit = 960,000 tris.

    On ultra, let's say it's four times of low. 1 soldier = 8,000; 1 unit = 1,280,000 tris.

    Don't forget, as we move up the notches, the draw distance for the high res meshes becomes longer.

    Setting further middlegrounds is unfeasible for the dev team - that's a lot of LODs in the first place, they don't need to add even more. That would just take ages, and increase the size of the game manifold.
    So, either I need to have a Nasa super computer or just deal with unit detail on Low.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Shogun 2 and Unit Detail settings.

    Same problem here, there is definetly some unoptimized instancing going on here, hope its ALOT better in the release version (as, luckily, most reviews have stated that it does in fact run great even on the unfinished dx11).

    But i dont agree with the "this is not Medieval 2" and "alot of triangles to render" excuses... It is the same engine as NTW, and that game runs absolutely great with 8x AA (actually faster than with 4x AA) and all at max, including depth of field, distortion and HDR.
    Now Shogun 2, with unit detail on medium, runs WORSE than NTW runs with everything at ultra, including the smoke mod at max details and extra dust! (slower than vanilla NTW).

    Dont tell me Shogun 2 at medium, without AA, looks better or has more complex models than NTW on ultra. Not to my eyes anyway.
    I just think it is a matter of poor optimization, both in the game and in the drivers. I expect the retail game to have this fixed, and I'm sure there will be 2-3 iterations of ATI and nVidia drivers released over the coming months for optimizations to this game specifically.
    The reviews say it runs great, lets hope its the case!

  10. #10

    Default Re: Shogun 2 and Unit Detail settings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kredios View Post
    Please, take notice of the framerate counter at the top right of the pictures below.

    This first shot is a top-down view with all settings, including Unit Detail on Ultra. No DoF, Distortion or SSAO. Changing Unit Detail had no effect upon framerate from this angle.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    This second image is a close-up view behind an Ashigaru unit with Unit Detail on Ultra.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    This third image is the same angle but with Unit Detail on Medium.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    This last image is the same angle but with Unit Detail on Low.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Loss of framerate on a zoom-in is normal, I understand this. But 30-45 FPS drop is just far too noticeable, especially considering how clunky and slow the camera becomes when zoomed in on the action. It's hard to watch something in the 20 fps range. It's also really odd to look at models that have less than 20 polygons and noodle arms. (exaggeration)


    It looks pretty normal to me. It's known by now that CA couldn't code themselves out of a wet paper bag, so optimization might have alot to do with it as well. Try turning grass off, that might save you some FPS though.

    My biggest piece of advice is though, just don;t run fraps while playing the game. Minding your FPS all the time, and getting annoyed when it goes into a dip really gets in the way of you having fun with the game.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Shogun 2 and Unit Detail settings.

    Alternatively, you should be able to reduce the size of the unit, and play on medium.

    Then again - there's supposedly going to be optimization between the demo and release. That might help the situation. And again, if dx11 is used to it's fullest, that should speed up the render pipeline too.

    @Baleurion - agreed, about your comparison of NTW and S2TW. However, this is just a demo. Optimization, polish, and the use of dx11 will hopefully fix things up. Also, it's been said that the DoF and SSAO in the demo is not properly coded, and that it's going to be optimised.
    Last edited by PartyElite; March 14, 2011 at 03:42 AM.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Shogun 2 and Unit Detail settings.

    Yeah, I dont know much about the technical details of dx11 or dx10, but I do know there is a fair ammount of optimization and more efficent handling of model instancing for example, so some framerate gains are to be expected.
    Plus the polish ofc

    To be honest I just hope it runs as well as NTW (not counting crashes or soundbugs), I mean I just hope it is a continued improvement on the engine, like NTW was compared to the choptastic ETW (which was still very beautiful at times, especially the ships).

    I use too many paranthesi

  13. #13

    Default Re: Shogun 2 and Unit Detail settings.

    The demo ran like NTW and ETW for me so I'm good. I run everything on low except unit sizes are on
    Ultra and Unit Textures and Detail on Medium





  14. #14
    Dynamo11's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 and Unit Detail settings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kredios View Post
    Images below.

    This first picture is an Ashigaru unit with Unit Detail settings on low.
    lmfao don't even get me started


  15. #15

    Default Re: Shogun 2 and Unit Detail settings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kredios View Post
    Images below.

    This first picture is an Ashigaru unit with Unit Detail settings on low.


    This second picture is another Ashigaru unit with Until Detail settings on Medium.


    Scary.

    Weren't these characters featured in Ring ?

  16. #16

    Default Re: Shogun 2 and Unit Detail settings.

    What's the difference between "High" and "Ultra" unit detail levels? Just the LoD?

  17. #17

    Default Re: Shogun 2 and Unit Detail settings.

    Wow. Like, don't answer me, or anything.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Shogun 2 and Unit Detail settings.

    I think it's more than just LOD. From what I've seen, there's a distinct increase in polycount as well - the rounded edges are smoother with ultra than on high. This implies a higher polycount.
    And LOD draw distance keeps changing per notch as well.
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  19. #19
    Amazing Horse's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 and Unit Detail settings.

    21 fps isn't bad at all.

  20. #20
    Civis
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 and Unit Detail settings.

    21 fps is bad. To play smooth it needs about 30 fps

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