Diplomacy question

[soulson]

Hi all hope everything is well. I read your post about diplomacy, very interesting.

"I told you that FAI - FAI diplomacy works when the pts_alliance = 1 is in the positive (above ZERO). The more positive the more likely to achieve diplomacy. This scale can go to whatever the AI is designed to do. I.E. a range from -20 to a 20"

I had a question about this. I want to keep alliances within their own religion. Therefore I gave the pts_alliance a value of -100 to factions with a different religion when considering alliances but I am still getting alliances between religions early in the game and I don't know why. You mentioned the "scale" and it's range but how is that range created?

[xeryx]

That is a very good question! One of the best in the forums! but I need more information, and I need snippets from your logs to make sure your changes are working. If so, there could be something that has been missed. Are you talking AI to AI relationships? or Human to AI because that obviously is different. Also, certain commands only work in the defensive section or offensive section.

[soulson]

Sorry for the late response I missed this thread. Been picking away at this situation and I am now able to keep factions allying between diff religions but they ignore this rule for humans. Will try and get that log to you asap. Thanks.

[xeryx]

Human to AI is handled differently in some ways. The diplomatic files play a role then.

[soulson]

Well after checking the log, I know that for some reason the AI is calculating alliance decisions for the human and I have no idea why

It even seems that they aren't calculating decisions for their neighbours. Do I need to be neighbour specific when creating new entries? If you need the alliance section of the file let me know. Thanks again.


Neutral

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

LTGD: decision parameters 'moors' (ai_label:islam) vs faction 'spain':
16:48:01.362 [ai.ltgd] [info] <16> military: frontline_balance 18772, military_balance 3.75717, military_balance_plus_enemies 3.75717, alliance_military_balance 3.75717, free_strength_balance 17.6886
16:48:01.362 [ai.ltgd] [info] <16> faction standing: faction_standing -0.896644, target_faction_standing -0.9, global_standing 0, target_global_standing 0.00025
16:48:01.362 [ai.ltgd] [info] <16> diplomacy: stance Neutral, num_enemies 0, target_num_enemies 0, has_alliance_against 0, num_turns_allied 0, num_turns_ceasefire -1
16:48:01.362 [ai.ltgd] [info] <16> trusted_allies: trusted_ally 0, trusted_ally_enemy 0, trusted_ally_protectorate 0
16:48:01.362 [ai.ltgd] [info] <16> protectorate: is_protectorate 0, is_protectorate_of_catholic 0
16:48:01.362 [ai.ltgd] [info] <16> papal: excommunicated 0, enemy_excommunicated 0, has_ceasehostilities 0
16:48:01.362 [ai.ltgd] [info] <16> neighbour: is_neighbour 1, target_weakest_neighbour 0, strongest_neighbour 0, borders_all_our_regions 1
16:48:01.362 [ai.ltgd] [info] <16> win conditions: is_faction_to_outlive_target 1, is_target_faction_to_outlive 1
16:48:01.362 [ai.ltgd] [info] <16> misc: production_balance 2.54828, target_religion 0, target_faction spain, num_settlements 12
16:48:01.362 [ai.ltgd] [info] <16> rand 0.185675, difficulty very_hard, turn_number 0
16:48:01.362 [ai.ltgd] [info] <16> most_desirable 0, target_human 1, target_is_shadow 0
16:48:01.362 [ai.ltgd] [info] <16> LTGD: (islam) defend decision: defend = defend_normal, defend_priority = -1, at_war = 0, want_peace = 0, want_ally = 0, want_be_protect = 0, alliance_against = 0, pts_alliance = 0

Allied

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

LTGD: decision parameters 'moors' (ai_label:islam) vs faction 'spain':
16:49:45.239 [ai.ltgd] [info] <16> military: frontline_balance 50367, military_balance 5.24042, military_balance_plus_enemies 5.24042, alliance_military_balance 5.24042, free_strength_balance 51.1104
16:49:45.239 [ai.ltgd] [info] <16> faction standing: faction_standing -0.434953, target_faction_standing -0.444882, global_standing 0.00049875, target_global_standing 0.000746256
16:49:45.239 [ai.ltgd] [info] <16> diplomacy: stance Allied, num_enemies 0, target_num_enemies 0, has_alliance_against 0, num_turns_allied 0, num_turns_ceasefire -1
16:49:45.239 [ai.ltgd] [info] <16> trusted_allies: trusted_ally 0, trusted_ally_enemy 0, trusted_ally_protectorate 0
16:49:45.239 [ai.ltgd] [info] <16> protectorate: is_protectorate 0, is_protectorate_of_catholic 0
16:49:45.239 [ai.ltgd] [info] <16> papal: excommunicated 0, enemy_excommunicated 0, has_ceasehostilities 0
16:49:45.239 [ai.ltgd] [info] <16> neighbour: is_neighbour 1, target_weakest_neighbour 0, strongest_neighbour 0, borders_all_our_regions 1
16:49:45.240 [ai.ltgd] [info] <16> win conditions: is_faction_to_outlive_target 1, is_target_faction_to_outlive 1
16:49:45.240 [ai.ltgd] [info] <16> misc: production_balance 2.54828, target_religion 0, target_faction spain, num_settlements 12
16:49:45.240 [ai.ltgd] [info] <16> rand 0.266518, difficulty very_hard, turn_number 2
16:49:45.240 [ai.ltgd] [info] <16> most_desirable 1, target_human 1, target_is_shadow 0
16:49:45.240 [ai.ltgd] [info] <16> LTGD: (islam) defend decision: defend = defend_frontline, defend_priority = -1, at_war = 0, want_peace = 0, want_ally = 0, want_be_protect = 0, alliance_against = 0, pts_alliance = 0

Did some more testing with non neighbour factions. I am able to ally with a faction that isn't my neighbour and they have a points alliance of -21. Thought that was odd as well. I definately screwed something up.

[xeryx]

Don't worry, It is hard, frustrating, and potentially mind numbing to mod AI. You also have to consider BOTH sides of the numbers (both Factions, and both Offensive and Defensive), because there are certain conditions that WILL override the Pts Alliance.

[soulson]

Indeed it is. Any tips on when to use the point alliance entry when it comes to defense section and invasion section? What would be the difference and the results?


Edit: Found out I need to reset or counter the alliance_against in the invasion section to keep tons of random alliances down which is great. You were right about playing around with the values. I needed some crazy high values to make it difficult for the human and AI to get alliance.

[soulson]

Any plans to update/continue your diplomacy thread on the main page? Still interested in how the range is created.

[xeryx]

Yes, there are plans for sure. I at least want to pass on my knowledge to others. Hopefully it will be useful.

[dknight237]

please do, your expertise would be a great help. One thing I wanted to ask was about campaign map pathfinding. Is that determined solely by the two pathfinding files you included or is there more to it than that?

[soulson]

"Points alliance also affect the human on the diplomacy screen. It acts as a bonus or a penalty. That is why the alignment is so important, if it is off one way or the other it throws off everything."


Is there any clear cut signs of this to let the modder know they are way off? For instance I still get "balanced" on the diplomacy screen with a pts_alliance of -30 for the player.

[xeryx]

please do, your expertise would be a great help. One thing I wanted to ask was about campaign map pathfinding. Is that determined solely by the two pathfinding files you included or is there more to it than that?

Map Pathfinding, is strictly how good a map is made. The pathfinding files are for Battle AI

"Points alliance also affect the human on the diplomacy screen. It acts as a bonus or a penalty. That is why the alignment is so important, if it is off one way or the other it throws off everything."


Is there any clear cut signs of this to let the modder know they are way off? For instance I still get "balanced" on the diplomacy screen with a pts_alliance of -30 for the player.

Yes, it does affect it, however the Diplomacy file also affects these things as a modifier. That is what can make things so darn complicated, and why a complete balancing of a mod after integration must be done. I actually just play campaigns to get the proper feel, and then adjust the balancing sections in the CAI