So About The Spiderman Samurai.....

[Nordmann]

If you're still not convinced by the several videos, paintings of the period, and prominent Sengoku historian Stephen Turnbull's account of wall-climbing as a viable tactic during sieges, nothing will do it. Seriously, there are many other and greater historical inaccuracies in the game, this is not one of them.

Indeed. Walls were there simply to slow the enemy down, they did not stop them as with traditional European fortifications. Scaling them is quite possible, especially when you consider the height, weight, and fitness of the men involved (smaller and lighter than most Europeans of the time).

Also, while they are wearing armour, the materials are quite different, and nowhere near as heavy as you might think.

[Lugiahua]

Also the fact that European castles were made to defend the town within, while Japanese castles were not. They were strategic points and not meant to protect resources or people. They were there as a base of operations for the army they housed...that’s it. Like most things in Japanese warfare offense was seen as the preferred choice.

I actually have a question about that:
Since majority Japanese local civilians did not retreat into the castle like Europeans,
what if the enemy used them as hostages or human shields against defending forces?
(I assumed many defenders were conscripted local villagers)

ex: attackers brought villagers from the local village to the outside of castle, then told defenders if they refuse to surrender, attackers would kill their families right on the spots.

[Alpha TWC]

Also the fact that European castles were made to defend the town within, while Japanese castles were not. They were strategic points and not meant to protect resources or people. They were there as a base of operations for the army they housed...that’s it. Like most things in Japanese warfare offense was seen as the preferred choice.

totally agree

(and this 1654th discussion of spiderman samurai... excuse me but... boring... boring... boring )


To better understand this japanese mentality, we look at World War II.

Normandy landings, German (European mentality), big defense directly on the waterline and beach.

In the Pacific Islands, controlled by the Japanese, often no defense on the beach, but inside ....

[Lugiahua]

totally agree

(and this 1654th discussion of spiderman samurai... excuse me but... boring... boring... boring )


To better understand this japanese mentality, we look at World War II.

Normandy landings, German (European mentality), big defense directly on the waterline and beach.

In the Pacific Islands, controlled by the Japanese, often no defense on the beach, but inside ....

That actually only happened on Iwo Jima and Okinawa
Before that Japanese officer often placed their defense on the beach, and usually suffer heavy lost from allied naval gunfire even before the landing.

[M2TWRocks]

If you're still not convinced by the several videos, paintings of the period, and prominent Sengoku historian Stephen Turnbull's account of wall-climbing as a viable tactic during sieges, nothing will do it. Seriously, there are many other and greater historical inaccuracies in the game, this is not one of them.

I have not seen these videos. Could you climb that wall? I sincerely doubt it. How about if someone stood overhead and stabbed you in the face with a 12 foot long spear? And historical paintings from hundreds of years ago hardly convince me of anything. Most paintings, and documentation from battles, are extremely biased in favor of the person commisioning the painting.

I don't need a PHD to know that it's very difficult for a human being to climb up a sheer wall with his bare hands. I've done it myself when I was in peak physical condition, weighing approximately 168lbs, with 10% body fat, and it was tremendously difficult. And I was wearing shorts and no shirt, and was armed with modern nutrition knowledge, and modern physical fitness conditioning.

I'm sorry. I'm just not convinced. Nor am I bamboozled by most Westerners(at least American) misinformed idea of the seemingly magical combat prowess of the Japanese. They are humans with the same restrictions and capacities of any other culture.

I could see someone climbing a ten foot wall possibly, despite how much that would slow you down, but a 40 ft sheer wall like in that picture? Sorry, but I'm not convinced.

[Alpha TWC]

That actually only happened on Iwo Jima and Okinawa
Before that Japanese officer often placed their defense on the beach, and usually suffer heavy lost from allied naval gunfire even before the landing.

Certainly, but my discussion is about the mentality.

Peleliu there was already a good opposition at the beach, as in o0ther i, but the defense system proper was inside, in tunnels, bunkers and more. And the difficile was definitely inside, not on the beach.

In the European mentality, with all the exceptions that there is not a general rule, it is a fact-minded discussion, the difficulty is the beginning, the walls... etc

[Ham the Pharoah]

You realize the higher the wall is the more units fall off and die right? By the time you're dont climbing a 3rd tier wall from the start it's possible you'll be down to 25% unit size.

[SonOfCrusader76]

You realize the higher the wall is the more units fall off and die right? By the time you're dont climbing a 3rd tier wall from the start it's possible you'll be down to 25% unit size.

Indeed. If you don't want to sustain that many casualties with higher level walls, is there an option to use ladders instead? How do you get inside higher level castles?

[Googoo24]

Can you climb this wall? Let's just assume you have no armor on.

I answered your questions. That's all. Seems you have a problem with units climbing walls in general, regardless of what anyone says. And that's fine, I have no problem with it. BTW, a number of the modern Japanese castles are reconstructions and not entirely historically accurate.

[Hilarion]

I have not seen these videos. Could you climb that wall? I sincerely doubt it. How about if someone stood overhead and stabbed you in the face with a 12 foot long spear? And historical paintings from hundreds of years ago hardly convince me of anything. Most paintings, and documentation from battles, are extremely biased in favor of the person commisioning the painting.

I don't need a PHD to know that it's very difficult for a human being to climb up a sheer wall with his bare hands. I've done it myself when I was in peak physical condition, weighing approximately 168lbs, with 10% body fat, and it was tremendously difficult. And I was wearing shorts and no shirt, and was armed with modern nutrition knowledge, and modern physical fitness conditioning.

I'm sorry. I'm just not convinced. Nor am I bamboozled by most Westerners(at least American) misinformed idea of the seemingly magical combat prowess of the Japanese. They are humans with the same restrictions and capacities of any other culture.

I could see someone climbing a ten foot wall possibly, despite how much that would slow you down, but a 40 ft sheer wall like in that picture? Sorry, but I'm not convinced.

Kagemusha, Heaven and Earth, and Ran I believe were the films mentioned which portray soldiers scaling walls. Besides that, even if you believe the paintings are biased (but why would they show samurai on walls if it never happened?), it's well documented by Stephen Turnbull as historical fact, who is considered an authority on samurai warfare.

Presumably, the walls weren't "sheer drops" but were curved enough to climb. Furthermore, the loose stone wall probably would have provided plenty of foot/handholds. That wall in the picture you keep mentioning is probably not the best example, because it's clearly worn down by age and the elements.

[Alpha TWC]

I have not seen these videos. Could you climb that wall? I sincerely doubt it. How about if someone stood overhead and stabbed you in the face with a 12 foot long spear? And historical paintings from hundreds of years ago hardly convince me of anything. Most paintings, and documentation from battles, are extremely biased in favor of the person commisioning the painting.

I don't need a PHD to know that it's very difficult for a human being to climb up a sheer wall with his bare hands. I've done it myself when I was in peak physical condition, weighing approximately 168lbs, with 10% body fat, and it was tremendously difficult. And I was wearing shorts and no shirt, and was armed with modern nutrition knowledge, and modern physical fitness conditioning.

I'm sorry. I'm just not convinced. Nor am I bamboozled by most Westerners(at least American) misinformed idea of the seemingly magical combat prowess of the Japanese. They are humans with the same restrictions and capacities of any other culture.

I could see someone climbing a ten foot wall possibly, despite how much that would slow you down, but a 40 ft sheer wall like in that picture? Sorry, but I'm not convinced.

the walls are quite inclined (perhaps due to the earthquakes? or better, the fact that the walls are embankments and then they could not perfectly vertical) with large "fissures" between the plate to plate ....

Personally a wall / embankment of this type near my house , smaller of course, I "climbed" without difficulty and i'm not supermen / spiderman or other ... then theoretically it is possible to climb.

That discussion became boring (not for himself but because it repeats many times), take it as fact, even books on the subject specifically and historians who have documented the question of of Japanese sieges.

[Black Fox]

That looks like good enough proof to me:

[Thefallenhun]

I like the gameplay elements it introduces, its a stragic choice you have to make.

[Prah]

so its possible but they stopped after a few meters, maybe they were suffering from fatigue and the chance of falling down increases the higher they climb! why isnt CA implementing th.... aaaaaaah

[Choki]

I'd love to see you climb either of those "walls." Now add armor, partially obscure your vision with said armor, and add a 8-12 foot long spear. I have a hard time believing this was an actual effective tactic.

Yes! you can´t!
And less in the Fortress in SHOGUN 2 Where some Wall are 90°. A ninja could climb that?

The Samurai went up the walls but with tools, which I do not see in Shogun 2. They used ladders do not understand why CA does not add stairs in their last 2 games!

[M2TWRocks]

Kagemusha, Heaven and Earth, and Ran I believe were the films mentioned which portray soldiers scaling walls. Besides that, even if you believe the paintings are biased (but why would they show samurai on walls if it never happened?), it's well documented by Stephen Turnbull as historical fact, who is considered an authority on samurai warfare.

Presumably, the walls weren't "sheer drops" but were curved enough to climb. Furthermore, the loose stone wall probably would have provided plenty of foot/handholds. That wall in the picture you keep mentioning is probably not the best example, because it's clearly worn down by age and the elements.

Your "proof" is movies? Lol, I thought you were talking about documentaries. In that case, the Last Samurai was a white American, as clearly shown by this historically accurate film:

[SonOfCrusader76]

Indeed. If you don't want to sustain that many casualties with higher level walls, is there an option to use ladders instead? How do you get inside higher level castles?

No ladders at all then? Strange the mouse pointer to climb up is a ladder.

[Mr_Cyberpunk]

so its possible but they stopped after a few meters, maybe they were suffering from fatigue and the chance of falling down increases the higher they climb! why isnt CA implementing th.... aaaaaaah

Needs More Wilhelm Scream. In b4 mod.

[dutch81]

In the manual it also says that the reason Japanese walls were this way was to make them more earthquake proof ... I thought that was interesting.

[Sol Invictus]

I think it was in a Turnbull book that I read that as well. Also, since the layout was a series of platforms going up to the keep, the walls needed to be sloped to support the weight.