War of the West General Discussion

[Polycarpe]

The Household Nobles (Knights)

Recruitment
Every region will possess an indestructible building called the Noble Estates. This building tree has one tier building for each settlement level (so even villages will be able to recruit knights). Along giving certain penalties, this building will get you access to a unit pool of Household Nobles, Men-at-Arms and Regulars.

The Household Nobles will have the special feature to have a general, known as the Knight Bachelor. This character will have the Household Nobles unit as his “bodyguard” retinue.
Dependably on the type of the unit, the number will be lower than the typical units.

• Mounted Household Nobles: 20 men + 3 Captains.
• Dismounted Household Nobles: 40 men + 3 Captains.

Back on the Nobles Estate, you will have the opportunity to choose from three different “types” of Nobility influence; Low, Standard or Strong. Different bonuses and penalties along recruitment of knights will be linked to the type of building.

The Household Nobles will be your best units but will be rare. Unfortunately, the hardcoded feature of auto-regenerate cannot be removed with the general_unit attribute (which required in order to have a character to lead the knights).

Since the previous idea of restriction is not possible of very complicated, the replenishment rate will be very low but will increase as the settlement size grows (and the type of Nobles Estates you choose).

Sounds better? Suggestions?

[dukewilliam]

I don't know whether or not this has been asked,(or if it can be implemented) but is there any way that if an enemy general is captured in battle, can he be ransomed back at a negotiable price, through the diplomacy feature rather than with the rest of the General's Bodyguard after the battle? since during the late middle ages the nobility were rarely executed, and instead were ransomed.

[Hektor27]

Aren't the rest of the general bodyguards part of the nobility too? :S

@Polycarpe: can we assign "general_unit" attribute to all units? Would that look like Medieval Total war where every unit is led by a named character?

[Plumo]

Hi all, very nice work on this mod.

I like the idea of fewer knight units. However, limiting it to 1 per settlement seems extreme. From a players standpoint (as King) we would be able to raise as many knights and lords as we wished.

That being said, of course there is a price for having more nobles.

Having a very high upkeep as suggested above is a great idea. Representing how costly it was for the crown to deal with the lords.

Having a very slow replenish rate of the recruitment pool would also be nice to represent training time etc.

Also I think giving them the General ability to auto replenish loses is OP. We should have to retrain, and pay to bring units back to strength. Takes time and money for knights, and esp the war horses!

Instead of only having 1 per settlement how about making recruitment take like X turns? This would represent the time it took the king to raise existing knights to lords, give them lands, a castle etc etc. The increased upkeep alone should make it hard to keep many units in play as well.

I love the work on this mod, but as a player it is nice to have to option to customize your kingdom as you wish. (More or less nobles being a prime example)

Just my 2 cents on the subject.

I understand what you mean but I don't agree, my friend:

A king could not recruit as many knights as he wanted. It depended on many factors, many of them have to do with feudalism. One disastrous battle for example could limit the amount of available knights for years to come ( 1300 in Flanders, 1215 in Bouvines...)

There ought to be gameplay differences:
- Strong feudalism means that the nobility have the wealth to raise many knights, to support you as their king. Also, upkeep of knights ought to be low when garrisoned in their own province, except when on campaign. The downside is that they can rebel more easily, and less wealth goes to your coffers. Also city rights are harmed by strong feudalism, which means less income / building options in towns.

@ Polycarpe

For your Low, Standard or Strong nobility influence , check the following list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudal_land_tenure

[Polycarpe]

I'll answer soon the comments gents but for the moment, I invite you to take a look this this thread.

Regards.

[ShadowKiller2000]

Hi Polycarpe,

Ah that building line sounds nice. I look forward to the details on it

@ Plumo :

I think you may have taken "as many as he wants" out of context. Can't quote from my phone but let me explain.

I was arguing that having only 1 noble unit per territory was far to limiting on the player, and restricted the choice of having more nobles. They should be rare, but not that rare. In any case Polycarpe's later reply put most of my fears to rest, once he clarified the building system.

I do have one question still. Will the general trait cause the AI to charge these units like crazy into armies?

I look forward to see how the different options of nobility affect gameplay

[Polycarpe]

I don't know whether or not this has been asked,(or if it can be implemented) but is there any way that if an enemy general is captured in battle, can he be ransomed back at a negotiable price, through the diplomacy feature rather than with the rest of the General's Bodyguard after the battle? since during the late middle ages the nobility were rarely executed, and instead were ransomed.

I think it's possible but I cannot say, the current way to capture a general is to capture it if he flees, will need more testing to see how the newly knight system will work.

Aren't the rest of the general bodyguards part of the nobility too? :S

@Polycarpe: can we assign "general_unit" attribute to all units? Would that look like Medieval Total war where every unit is led by a named character?

Yes, the bodyguards were part of the nobility as well but of "higher" hierarchy since they protect the family members.

This will be very special for sure but one thing is aside knights and bodyguards, certain other units will be lead by a character as well, one good example are the Yeomen of the Guard, they were the elite of England, protecting the king himself but where of course few. So logically this could be a good candidate for general_unit as well other units.

I understand what you mean but I don't agree, my friend:

A king could not recruit as many knights as he wanted. It depended on many factors, many of them have to do with feudalism. One disastrous battle for example could limit the amount of available knights for years to come ( 1300 in Flanders, 1215 in Bouvines...)

There ought to be gameplay differences:
- Strong feudalism means that the nobility have the wealth to raise many knights, to support you as their king. Also, upkeep of knights ought to be low when garrisoned in their own province, except when on campaign. The downside is that they can rebel more easily, and less wealth goes to your coffers. Also city rights are harmed by strong feudalism, which means less income / building options in towns.

@ Polycarpe

For your Low, Standard or Strong nobility influence , check the following list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudal_land_tenure

Totally agreed with those concepts, I'll make sure to follow those lines and thanks for the info about the land tenures.

Hi Polycarpe,

Ah that building line sounds nice. I look forward to the details on it

@ Plumo :

I think you may have taken "as many as he wants" out of context. Can't quote from my phone but let me explain.

I was arguing that having only 1 noble unit per territory was far to limiting on the player, and restricted the choice of having more nobles. They should be rare, but not that rare. In any case Polycarpe's later reply put most of my fears to rest, once he clarified the building system.

I do have one question still. Will the general trait cause the AI to charge these units like crazy into armies?

I look forward to see how the different options of nobility affect gameplay

Yes, I've changed the restriction thing for the knights, the recruitment guide posted before will give you a good idea on the availability of noble units. For the buildings, I am still into consideration to either give the choice to the player for the type of Nobles Estates or applying the type of influence per faction (France, strong influence, Burgundy low, etc.)

I will integrate the latest Germanicus BAI so technically, this behaviour would at least been more fixed but no promise (I'm not in font with BAI ).

[dukewilliam]

As always thank you for the response.

[zlikovac]

My idea is that you make Household Nobles unit very small in numbers (for example 5) and you recruit additional knights by buying additional security traits. In accordance with how many of your knights are killed in the battle is it possible to remove appropriate number of security traits so we can prevent the influence of auto-regenerate?

[Polycarpe]

My idea is that you make Household Nobles unit very small in numbers (for example 5) and you recruit additional knights by buying additional security traits. In accordance with how many of your knights are killed in the battle is it possible to remove appropriate number of security traits so we can prevent the influence of auto-regenerate?

In order to make a unit to have a character instead of a simple captain, you need to apply the general_Unit attribute. The auto-regeneration feature is hardcoded and it is linked to that attribute. Even if we play with the number of men in the unit by traits, the regeneration will still apply.

[zlikovac]

In order to make a unit to have a character instead of a simple captain, you need to apply the general_Unit attribute. The auto-regeneration feature is hardcoded and it is linked to that attribute. Even if we play with the number of men in the unit by traits, the regeneration will still apply.

I understand that but let me give you an example of what I was thinking. I don't know how exactly the personal security works so I will assume that 1 point of Personal Security equals +1 knight in a unit. Lets say that when you train a unit of Household Nobles you get a general with security trait +4, which will give you a unit of 5 knights. When you upgrade Noble Estate building you will have an option to buy additional security traits for the lord of that province and thus adding more knights to his personal unit (I assume that this is possible). If a general loses some of his knights in a battle can you automatically substract appropriate amount of personal security points for him (don't know if this is possible and my idea depends on this )? For example general loses 2 of his men in battle so amount of his security points drops from +4 to +2. This way auto auto-regeneration can not refill generals unit to a full amount because you have decreased amount of men in a unit and it wouldn't have nothing to add because unit is fully trained. If this can't be done I apologize for taking up your time.

[lolIsuck]

Smallest number of men in a unit is something like 16 I thought, any unit starting with less will regenerate to 16 I think.

[zlikovac]

Smallest number of men in a unit is something like 16 I thought, any unit starting with less will regenerate to 16 I think.

In this tutorial http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=221093 it is stated that the smallest possible unit size is 4. So there is still hope for my idea

[lolIsuck]

That would be elephant units I think.

[Polycarpe]

I understand that but let me give you an example of what I was thinking. I don't know how exactly the personal security works so I will assume that 1 point of Personal Security equals +1 knight in a unit. Lets say that when you train a unit of Household Nobles you get a general with security trait +4, which will give you a unit of 5 knights. When you upgrade Noble Estate building you will have an option to buy additional security traits for the lord of that province and thus adding more knights to his personal unit (I assume that this is possible). If a general loses some of his knights in a battle can you automatically substract appropriate amount of personal security points for him (don't know if this is possible and my idea depends on this )? For example general loses 2 of his men in battle so amount of his security points drops from +4 to +2. This way auto auto-regeneration can not refill generals unit to a full amount because you have decreased amount of men in a unit and it wouldn't have nothing to add because unit is fully trained. If this can't be done I apologize for taking up your time.

My friend, you do not waste my time at all.
If I remember the amount of men per point of personal security is about 2 or 3. In order to make balance for knights (since nobles were of course few), the recruitment will come into play with long waiting for recruiting additional nobles (in Britannia for example, there will be very few large city and higher, most settlements will be towns) so this thing will give a punch for balance prupose.

For a combination of triggers and personal security. Personal security if I remember cannot decrease by the trigger of losing men. In addition to that, the coding required will be very large and complex. For sure, once I will start working on recruitment, we will test the balance issue regarding it but my plan for this system will be fairly balanced. I am quite methodic and perfectionist, I had reworked at least 3 times the unit stats and now I am satisfied with the result. So mainly before entering in deeper system, we will test my idea of concept and I will tweak and balance it for the best balance possible.

[Polycarpe]

How about a little teaser? One of the most common Scottish soldiers and his role was crucial in Stirling Bridge


Indeed, Lord Hamilton made a very accurate an nice unit right there! Do you think he deserves a rep?

[Ngugi]

Hmm, hard to tell, perhaps if I was to be given some more screen shots I could conclude if he should get one...?

[Mausolos of Caria]

How about a little teaser? One of the most common Scottish soldiers and his role was crucial in Stirling Bridge


Indeed, Lord Hamilton made a very accurate an nice unit right there! Do you think he deserves a rep?

Wow that looks fantastic, finally real Pikemen in a real shiltron! I gave rep to Lord Hamilton

[Lord Hamilton]

Hmm, hard to tell, perhaps if I was to be given some more screen shots I could conclude if he should get one...?

Ask and ye shall receive...Behold the mighty warriors of Galloway!

Gaisgeach na Gallobha

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Emperor of Hell]

Great stuff ham!. Here's some +rep