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Thread: Consulate of Aventinus and Poplicola - 542AVC

  1. #61
    Nota''s Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Consulate of Aventinus and Poplicola - 542AVC

    Consul Aventius is right. We should not treat our them as our friends, as they are in fact our enemies. They attacked us, so why should we show them mercy? Why should we blunten the blade of revenge, when many good roman lives were lost in defence?

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Consulate of Aventinus and Poplicola - 542AVC

    A Man in middle class clothing enters the cura followed by a slave. He bows in respect to the noble senators

    "Greeting Noble Senators. I have a message from my noble master. He could not attend the senate meeting because he is currently finishing some important business and personal matters. as you know his father has recently pass away. But anyway here is my master letter to you noble senators " With that said the servant left the letter on a table and walked away

    The letter reads as follows

    Dear noble senators

    My dear friends of the senate. I have recently returned to the republic after finishing business in the outer citys of the republic. I have returned on sorrow news of my fathers death. He died unexpectedly and i am deeply sadden by his lost. My father was not very popular in the senate but regardless he was a good man and i hope that Pluto judges him kind

    Fires thing i want to do is Congratulate everyone on the conquest of Spain and of the Macedonians. I also want to stress the need that the temples of the gods should not be destroyed in Greece as they are the same gods as ours. That said when i return to the
    Curia after the next election . I will make a statement about the current affairs and my deep sorrow that temples where destroyed.

    I also would like to say that i will not be running for any of the positions of the senate for now. Anyway i hope you come and visit me in my villa. I also will be submitting my personal finance and my income for the year to the
    QUAESTOR. and pay any back taxes that are due.

    Sincerely
    Servius Muncius Septimus.
    Last edited by Lord Slayer; March 31, 2011 at 02:17 PM.
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  3. #63

    Default Re: Consulate of Aventinus and Poplicola - 542AVC

    Interesting...

    Have you forgotten,Scaeva, that the Macedonian state religion is also the religion of our allies the Greeks and indeed that of many of the other Mediterranean powers?Have you forgotten that Heracles is worshipped in many forms from Persia to Hispania?Have you forgotten that many Greek Gods bear such a resemblance to our Roman Gods that,surely they are one in the same?

    We are supposed to be liberators not conquers,yet we burn temples,slaughter innocents and rape women!

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Consulate of Aventinus and Poplicola - 542AVC

    Ah, my apologies for the misunderstanding. I was purely stating my resistance to Poplicola trying to control our soldiers from Rome, when they are fighting so hard while he sits in the comfort of Rome. As I said earlier I believe to that our gods and the gods of the greeks are very closely linked.

  5. #65

    Default Re: Consulate of Aventinus and Poplicola - 542AVC

    Do not try to change the subject boy,despite my criticism of Poplicola in the past,he is admirable for his skill both in Politics and on the battlefield,you are an incompetent coward.

    The issue is your avocation of the Murder of those who's only crime was being under the yoke of a brutal Tyrant.

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Consulate of Aventinus and Poplicola - 542AVC

    Do not speak to me in that tone pleb. Know your place. Keep throwing insults around and I shall be forced to use my censorial powers. Who are you to call me a coward? What have you done for the republic? I at least have the claim to have led an army to battle, and cut the throats of more than one carthaginian dog.

    Now, as this is a place of debate I will dignify your insults with response no longer, and may I suggest we continue with the proceedings.

  7. #67

    Default Re: Consulate of Aventinus and Poplicola - 542AVC

    In a mocking tone.

    "Use your censorial powers?"

    You have to in force them first and as Tribune of the Plebs my personage is inviolable.

    You cannot touch me.

  8. #68

    Default Re: Consulate of Aventinus and Poplicola - 542AVC

    Quote Originally Posted by War lord View Post
    Interesting...

    Have you forgotten,Scaeva, that the Macedonian state religion is also the religion of our allies the Greeks and indeed that of many of the other Mediterranean powers?Have you forgotten that Heracles is worshipped in many forms from Persia to Hispania?Have you forgotten that many Greek Gods bear such a resemblance to our Roman Gods that,surely they are one in the same?

    We are supposed to be liberators not conquers,yet we burn temples,slaughter innocents and rape women!
    Indeed, we must have control of the troops in the sense that a blood-lust does not overwhelm them with that I completely agree with you. At the same time I recognise your argument in the field of religion.

    Is it not similar that Kronos was bested by his son Zeus in the same way that Jupiter bested Saturn? Why else is he bound by chains until the Saturnalia? Once the Titans ruled the earth until the Gods overthrew them and then they were worshipped. The Greek religion is based upon an over throwing of divinity. What then do you call what Pallas is currently enacting? The Greek Gods are overthrown to be replaced by our own, they surely respect that strength in the same way they respected that of Zeus. The smarter minds amongst them will view this as a transcendence of the Gods, a refurbishment as you will. Their intellect will acknowledge this, after all that is what they pride themselves so highly on.

    What say you to that Senators?
    YATS NAME: Marcus Calpurnius Bestia - 52 [Plebeian]


  9. #69

    Default Re: Consulate of Aventinus and Poplicola - 542AVC

    Perhaps you misunderstand me Cassius,the Greek and Roman Gods are one in the same,Zeus cannot overthrow Jupiter because they are one in the same,to tear down Greek temples is to risk angering the Gods.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Consulate of Aventinus and Poplicola - 542AVC

    I disagree, the Gods will be lauded by the victor, do you disagree that they will desire that? The Macedonians were the first to attack us, we have crushed them and burned their offerings from Gods and will rebuild them with the illustrious names of our Gods. I disagree that they are one in the same but that is perhaps my own personal view, however, whether they are the same, would they rather be worshipped by two nations who have not reached their potential or one supreme nation that has spread their names all over the world?

    The Gods see the grand scheme of things and they will not be angered by our actions. Of course I do not stand here professing to be their mouthpiece nor do I expect you to accept or even acknowledge my viewpoint. In issues such as this if men are at odds there will be no agreement and we must simply respect each others opinions on the matter as I do yours and vote accordingly.
    He raised both hands to show his appreciation towards Licinius.

    One thing I must say however, when a Censor, a man of more considerable experience than yourself, a man who has risen to the very heights of the Cursus Honorum with little to no disgrace to his name it would be wise to listen to his advice. The shadow of Gracchus has not faded, the use of the office of Tribune is a foolhardy adventure and I would advise you not to swing it around like a shiny new toy.
    YATS NAME: Marcus Calpurnius Bestia - 52 [Plebeian]


  11. #71

    Default Re: Consulate of Aventinus and Poplicola - 542AVC

    There is a difference between making offerings to the Gods and rebuilding their Temples to reflect the devotion of Rome to her divine protectors,and the desecration that Pallas is ordering and Scaeva is advocating.

    His advice? If he had of given advice I would have gladly accepted his wisdom,all I hear is a man drunk on the blood of men,both Roman and Greek.
    Last edited by War lord; March 31, 2011 at 05:23 PM.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Consulate of Aventinus and Poplicola - 542AVC

    Thankyou Gerges, it is always good to have a voice of reason in the senate, if you were not my elder I would say you are wise beyond your years.
    It is my personal opinion that the gods are not the same. For example compare Mars and Ares. Both often linked but very different from each other. Ares is a ruthless bloodthirsty killer, and is someone to be feared not admired. This contrasts strongly with Mars, who founded the Roman race, is also a god of agriculture, and whilst militaristic, seeks war to secure peace. I see the two groups of gods as cousins, so it is feasible for one to overthrow the other, if we believe in the existence of the greek gods at all.

  13. #73

    Default Re: Consulate of Aventinus and Poplicola - 542AVC

    It is clear that as simple Senators we are not capable of making such a Judgement,the Augurs must be consulted, until then a temporary measure should be taken to insure we do not cause possible further offence to the Gods.

    1. No more Temples devoted to the Greek Gods will be razed until the will of the Gods in this matter is known

    2. Any Temples already razed should be rebuilt in the Roman style as soon as possable.

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Consulate of Aventinus and Poplicola - 542AVC

    Kaeso entered the Curia and looked at the other Senators. His blood boiled at the thought of what some of these men did to his father. How dare they exile a perfect roman !. And for what because he did not agree with them at important times. Because he was the voice of the people and not the elite. But he shook those thoughts away as he sat in the back. looking at the other senators.

    He had recently come back from a trip to Macedonia. He was their with a client of his before the legions came and began their conquest. He saw what the legions did to those poor innocent people in the city's they took over. but he could do nothing to stop them. So he went back to rome to plea his case in front of the senate. That the legions went out of line in burning the temples and raping the woman and burning buildings. He took a deep breath and stood up. and began to speak

    " My dear friends of the senate. I have recently returned to the republic after finishing business in the city of
    Edessa . I have returned on sorrow news of my fathers death. He died unexpectedly and i am deeply sadden by his lost. But that is not why i have come to the senate. No i came here in outrage at what our legions did to the temple of Edessa. And what they did to the woman of the city. How dare they harm woman in that matter!. Are we not better than those barbaians ?. Are we not better then those Carthaginians. And yet we Rape woman and burn down temples to the gods ?.

    What have we become My fellow senators ?. Do we not condemn these actions by someone that suppose to campaign on the peoples behalf. How do you think our actions reflect on roman values with our allies and our people ?. I think it reflects badly on our values . In the market place i see children as slaves. Since when do children who are Innocent in this fine world become slaves ?. This is Disgusting and poorly reflects our values. And yet we do nothing to stop the actions of
    Pallas Rutulus Aventinus
    who is the man responsible for what happened in the city of Edessa. it was his legions after all that did this.

    So ask yourself this question my fellow senators. What is more important ?. Our values? or how much money we can make by conquest at any cost ?. answer this question my friends. because the path our republic is going on. it seems that our greed is taking over our sense of values of the republic the ones our founders created for us to follow.
    "

    With his speech finished
    Kaeso sat down and waited to see what the senators response will be. He had a feeling that it was going to be interesting


    Last edited by Lord Slayer; April 03, 2011 at 05:24 PM.
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  15. #75
    Maiar93's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Consulate of Aventinus and Poplicola - 542AVC

    Macedonians have released the horrors of war in our fields, where live roman people. They would have done the same to us. And this is why we launched the revenge war towards Macedonians. This is war, and when it is played on Macedonian terms, people will be killed. Think it as returning the favour to them; they deserve no more. It is not our intention to gain money by this war, Titus grimaced, but to revenge our brutally murdered peasants, their raped wives and enslaved children.

    For the matter of greek gods; i will agree with Scaeva here. They are not the same, but definitely cousins they are. When our just and good gods will watch over their lands, it will just go uphill. Greek gods, remember, like to see people kill their own brethren, and are cruel and unjust. This is why we should relieve them of their foul gods.
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  16. #76
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    Default Re: Consulate of Aventinus and Poplicola - 542AVC

    Kaeso laughed at the senator who spoke of the gods as cousins. The senator was wrong on many levels. But he could not help but wonder if the old timer was blinded by greed or did not learn of the gods properly. Kaeso stood up once again and looked at the senator that spoke.

    " Why do you assume the gods are Cousins ?.. Is not the queen of the gods Juno the same as Hera ?. Are they not both the goddess of marriage ?.is not the god of the forge Vulcan the same as the god of the forge
    Hephaestus of the Greeks ?. The Greek gods and our gods are one and the same with different names. so destroying the temple of their gods is like destroying one of our temples to our gods since they are one and the same . Either way we provoke the wrath of the gods .

    Now friend you just said this is a war of revenge. If that is that case are we not as bad as Carthaginians and the barbarians. So our peasants died brutally. But is that a just cause to go to war and destroy other people temples ?. Do we even have proof that they have enslaved children in Macedonia City's ?. and even if they do. Who are we to talk about such horrors when we ourselves have children as slaves in our own markets ?. And in that case we are just as bad as those Macedonians. So they rape our woman which is wrong. But do two wrongs equal justice ?.

    Think about those things my fellow senators. And before you go on a warpath about how i know about the gods. one of my friends is a priest of the god of war mars. Which i pray to daily and to the other god and goddess as well. Tell me friend. How do you know that the greek gods wish to see their own people kill their brethren ?. How do you know the greek gods are cruel and unjust. One could say that our own gods are the same way. who are we to judge the gods of others ?. "

    Kaeso sat down and let out a deep breath and waited to see what the other senators will say. This person that speaks of the gods as if he knows them. He seems to be a threat to the republic. Kaeso smiled at the thought of maybe seeing justice for his father being carried out in a form of revenge.
    Last edited by Lord Slayer; March 31, 2011 at 11:31 PM.
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  17. #77

    Default Re: Consulate of Aventinus and Poplicola - 542AVC

    Senator Flaminius, when have the Macedonians brought war to our fields hmm? In fact, you need not answer the question for it is rhetorical. The Macedonians were never more than a minor threat to us, in fact, our main objective for the dispatching of troops was to merely ensure that Greece stay divided and that they would not be in a position to reinforce Hannibal, a problem I took care of in my first term as Consul. If I did not know better about how terribly inept this body is at inquiring into the past I would have you checked for any substances that could impair your decision-making. I ensure this house that the next time we combat piracy in any other sea that there will be men such as he that come in with stories filled with grandiose melodrama for our entertainment.

    I will also say to you senator Kaeso, to imply that the gods are in any way related is blasphemy. They worship different gods than we. Incorporating certain aspects of their deities in no way makes them cousins or the same. We will not tolerate such things from you, nor the Greeks.

    I will also remind this body that we were content to let Macedon alone, merely guarding our shores but it was they who decided to strike the first blow, escalating a dying conflict, the rest of the actions taken are simple repercussions for their actions distributed appropriately. However, the mistreatment of civilians is another matter entirely, and should not be tolerated against other civilized cultures, particularly great albeit fading ones such as Macedon and Greece.

    I will now formalize one of the motions presented earlier since it would seem that my co-consul will not back down from an informal proclamation to control his men for the good of our alliances in Greece:

    I. Any soldier who mistreats Macedonian or Greek civilians will be summarily executed by crucifixion in the Campus Martius to serve as a disciplinary reminder to those who cannot control themselves.

    I urge you to support the motion so that it may be put to vote with great haste as to avoid any further bloodshed that many would find to be unsavoury and vile and unbefitting of a civilized, disciplined army such as ours.
    Lucius Valerius Poplicola - Patrician - 34






  18. #78
    Maiar93's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Consulate of Aventinus and Poplicola - 542AVC

    I still insist the though that they killed, humiliated and enslaved our people but we are not allowed to pay them back for it..

    Anyway, to me your proposal looks fine, Poplicola.
    Titus sneered, Poplicola's words were true and he knew it. I like your idea. Nowadays the discipline has seemed to fade, for quite...
    Titus paused, different reasons. Perhaps we should question, why..

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  19. #79

    Default Re: Consulate of Aventinus and Poplicola - 542AVC

    I veto the motion on two grounds,first that the Crucifixion of any Roman Citizen,even while under arms,creates a dangerous precedent.Secondly that the events in Edessa are more the failure of a Consul who failed to control his men then deliberate disobeying of orders.
    Last edited by War lord; April 01, 2011 at 11:20 AM.

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Consulate of Aventinus and Poplicola - 542AVC

    Titus sighed deeply, rolled his eyes and stood up.

    Tribune Caldius, discipline and loyalty to Rome has to remain. It is not about orders of the Consul, but how they will remain in discipline and how well do they remember their code of honor.
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