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Thread: The migration of vlachs/romanians

  1. #81
    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
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    Default Re: The migration of vlachs/romanians

    You know...it happened long ago. Protesters are late a bit
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB HORSEARCHER
    quis enim dubitat quin multis iam saeculis, ex quo vires illius ad Romanorum nomen accesserint, Italia quidem sit gentium domina gloriae vetustate sed Pannonia virtute

    Sorry Armenia, for the rascals who lead us.


  2. #82
    Basileos Leandros I's Avatar Writing is an art
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    Default Re: The migration of vlachs/romanians

    Quote Originally Posted by Odovacar View Post
    You know...it happened long ago. Protesters are late a bit
    I miss the old times Things are never the same.

    The epic thread was in 2008. Long time ago, wow.
    Ja mata, TosaInu. Forever remembered.

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  3. #83

    Default Re: The migration of vlachs/romanians

    Quote Originally Posted by Odovacar View Post
    Still slavs came from today's Ukraine, and most balcanic peoples speak their language.
    Right. The linguistic influence was the biggest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Basileos Leandros I View Post
    I'm disappointed, there's only one guy protesting against the migration of the Vlachs. Last thread had a whole army, now it's only one?
    The concept of a Vlach migration (as in the origin of modern Romanians) is retarded.
    "Mors Certa, Hora Incerta."

    "We are a brave people of a warrior race, descendants of the illustrious Romans, who made the world tremor. And in this way we will make it known to the whole world that we are true Romans and their descendants, and our name will never die and we will make proud the memories of our parents." ~ Despot Voda 1561

    "The emperor Trajan, after conquering this country, divided it among his soldiers and made it into a Roman colony, so that these Romanians are descendants, as it is said, of these ancient colonists, and they preserve the name of the Romans." ~ 1532, Francesco della Valle Secretary of Aloisio Gritti, a natural son to Doge

  4. #84
    Getwulf's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The migration of vlachs/romanians

    Quote Originally Posted by piroska View Post
    brief connection=some 1000 years
    and because you dared to mention the bulgarians, we have a migration mentioned.
    well, well , look at you
    f
    Like I said... We had a brief connection...!

    I meant more like other developments in the 19th C. AD... For a moment there we almost had a Valaho-Hungarian empire. But both Valahians and Hungarians were afraid that Russia would step in to put an end to that so it never happened.

    Yeah... We had old church Slavonic in our churches and there were some Slavic migrations along with other people (Albanians, Bulgars, Cumans). But to point fingers to us and say that all of us are those people is wrong and I don't buy the idea that those people ever outnumbered the "Vlachs" or us "get beget" Romanians. Large parts of Romania... Moldova and Valahia were always inhabited. So was, Transylvania although it suffered much greater population shifts because it had to bear the brunt of the nomadic migrating people.
    Last edited by Getwulf; March 06, 2011 at 09:08 PM.
    Sai rodida Guthans!

  5. #85

    Default Re: The migration of vlachs/romanians

    Quote Originally Posted by Odovacar View Post
    A paraphrase of mors certa, hora incerta.
    A mysterious phrase which one would rightly expect from a venetian vampire
    Free Székely Land! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sz%C3%A9kely_Land
    Autonomy for Transylvania!

  6. #86

    Default Re: The migration of vlachs/romanians

    This is so lame -_-;
    "Mors Certa, Hora Incerta."

    "We are a brave people of a warrior race, descendants of the illustrious Romans, who made the world tremor. And in this way we will make it known to the whole world that we are true Romans and their descendants, and our name will never die and we will make proud the memories of our parents." ~ Despot Voda 1561

    "The emperor Trajan, after conquering this country, divided it among his soldiers and made it into a Roman colony, so that these Romanians are descendants, as it is said, of these ancient colonists, and they preserve the name of the Romans." ~ 1532, Francesco della Valle Secretary of Aloisio Gritti, a natural son to Doge

  7. #87
    shikaka's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: The migration of vlachs/romanians

    Yesterday I saw Ford Fairlane again. There is a quote what fits here:

    "Talking to Zuzu was like :wub: with a cheese grater.
    Slightly amusing, but mostly painful."



    Talking about this subject is similar

    To be honest, even with being fully cooperative, the discussion of the daco-roman continuity theory doesn't really makes sense. AND lately, they are not really fun either.

  8. #88
    mircea's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: The migration of vlachs/romanians

    Quote Originally Posted by Basileos Leandros I View Post
    I'm disappointed, there's only one guy protesting against the migration of the Vlachs. Last thread had a whole army, now it's only one?
    Why should we intervene when Hungarians themselves are proving that their little theory is useless

    At first I thought that piroska is a supporter of the migration BS, but then I realized that in fact she only tries to prove that Romanians were living North of Danube even before Magyar invasion

    And the award "How Shoot yourself in the foot" is awarded to ... piroska

    Quote Originally Posted by piroska View Post
    and the migration
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krum_of_Bulgaria
    Furious, Krum ravaged the environs of Constantinople and headed home, capturing Adrianople en route and transplanting its inhabitants (including the parents of the future Emperor Basil I) across the Danube. In spite of the approach of winter, Krum took advantage of the good weather to send a force of 30,000 into Thrace, which captured Arkadioupolis (Lüleburgaz) and carried off 50,000 captives in the Bulgarian lands across the Danube.
    This little text is crucial from two perspectives:
    1. It proves that a Latin population was living North of Danube in 814, almost a century before the Magyar invasion in Pannonia, but more importantly, 4 centuries before the supposed migration of Romanians
    2. The second perspective is even more damaging for Hungarian theory. We have a dilemma regarding the fate of these captives. On one hand, we can say that maybe they were assimilated, but if so, were back to square one, were, Hungarians still struggle in vain to provide proofs of the hundreds of thousands of Romanians' ancestors that migrated to the North of Danube. So, one cannot wonder how those captives, a minority settled among a sea of Slavs, managed to survive, avoiding assimilation, and even succeeding in assimilating the majority of population. Their survival as a different ethnicity would have been possible only, and only if they lived close to other Romance people, because in other conditions, their number would have been too low to be enough to assimilate the supposedly more numerous Slavs.

  9. #89

    Default Re: The migration of vlachs/romanians

    Arkadioupolis/Luleburgaz isn't even in the Latinophone part of the Empire. It's in Eastern Thrace.
    So today Romania should have 21 million Greek-speaking people (a frightening perspective for the Republic of Turkey I may add )

  10. #90
    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
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    Default Re: The migration of vlachs/romanians

    Quote Originally Posted by mircea View Post

    This little text is crucial from two perspectives:
    1. It proves that a Latin population was living North of Danube in 814, almost a century before the Magyar invasion in Pannonia, but more importantly, 4 centuries before the supposed migration of Romanians
    2. The second perspective is even more damaging for Hungarian theory. We have a dilemma regarding the fate of these captives. On one hand, we can say that maybe they were assimilated, but if so, were back to square one, were, Hungarians still struggle in vain to provide proofs of the hundreds of thousands of Romanians' ancestors that migrated to the North of Danube. So, one cannot wonder how those captives, a minority settled among a sea of Slavs, managed to survive, avoiding assimilation, and even succeeding in assimilating the majority of population. Their survival as a different ethnicity would have been possible only, and only if they lived close to other Romance people, because in other conditions, their number would have been too low to be enough to assimilate the supposedly more numerous Slavs.
    I don't understand, sorry,
    Krum captured a lot of 'byzantians from Thrace" It's a well known story. And what?
    Does it mean, they were vlachs? Or what?

    As far as I know those captives returned to Byzant, after the bulgarians tried to stop them with hired magyar mercenaries. The magyars were double-dealers and they promised them free leave if the thracians give them everything they have. Instead of it these guys defeated the magyars and successfully returned to Byzant.

    Hungarians are not struggling hard in any such matters. As a matter of fact I think since Kristo's death currently no one makes earnest research in this matter. Most hungarian medievalist are not interested in the stuff.

    Gy. Kristo made a book about Early Transylvania which shows our contemporary knowledge about early TR. That is currently the official hungarian opinion, and not ideas thrown around by piroska or anyone else. I don't think any big daco-romanian twc member ever looked into the book, to find out the hungarian opinion.

    Since hungarians cannot be right ever, despite having internationally acknowledged historians.
    Under such circumstances why would anyone "pass away the time" debating nonsense.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB HORSEARCHER
    quis enim dubitat quin multis iam saeculis, ex quo vires illius ad Romanorum nomen accesserint, Italia quidem sit gentium domina gloriae vetustate sed Pannonia virtute

    Sorry Armenia, for the rascals who lead us.


  11. #91

    Default Re: The migration of vlachs/romanians

    Quote Originally Posted by Odovacar View Post
    I don't understand, sorry,
    Krum captured a lot of 'byzantians from Thrace" It's a well known story. And what?
    Does it mean, they were vlachs? Or what?

    As far as I know those captives returned to Byzant, after the bulgarians tried to stop them with hired magyar mercenaries. The magyars were double-dealers and they promised them free leave if the thracians give them everything they have. Instead of it these guys defeated the magyars and successfully returned to Byzant.

    Hungarians are not struggling hard in any such matters. As a matter of fact I think since Kristo's death currently no one makes earnest research in this matter. Most hungarian medievalist are not interested in the stuff.

    Gy. Kristo made a book about Early Transylvania which shows our contemporary knowledge about early TR. That is currently the official hungarian opinion, and not ideas thrown around by piroska or anyone else. I don't think any big daco-romanian twc member ever looked into the book, to find out the hungarian opinion.

    Since hungarians cannot be right ever, despite having internationally acknowledged historians.
    Under such circumstances why would anyone "pass away the time" debating nonsense.
    Maybe you can give us a résumé about official hungarian opinion, not everyone has access to Gy. Kristo wisdom.

  12. #92

    Default Re: The migration of vlachs/romanians

    The biggest problems concerning a south to north migration concerning Romanians/Vlachs.

    1. Nobody mentions it...EVER. There is not a SINGLE primary source that mentions a mass scale migration. It would have to have been from Byzantine territory and they took records of everything. The migration would have been HUUUGE, bigger than the Slavic migration. The Romanian population outnumbers all other nations on its borders minus Ukraine ~COMBINED~.

    2. Linguistic. Romanians speak a Latin language. Not just sort of, not just kind of, grammatically along with Sardinian it is the closest living relative of Latin. Although the vocabulary is varied over all, from day to day speech 90 percent of the words are of latin origin. Also considering Romanians speak a latin language, that excludes them from coming from the south where they would have spoken Greek.

    3. Archeological, again this migration would have been massive. Yet there is no shift in material culture or any archeological evidence of such a migration taking place.

    4. What DO the sources say? Every single source on the subject of the origin of Romanians/Vlachs states either a Latin origin, a Dacian origin or a combination of the two.

    So there is no "Daco Roman theory." It's a fact backed up by everything and everyone that ever had any credibility on the subject from Polish chroniclers to Italian humanists to Greek Byzantine writers.
    "Mors Certa, Hora Incerta."

    "We are a brave people of a warrior race, descendants of the illustrious Romans, who made the world tremor. And in this way we will make it known to the whole world that we are true Romans and their descendants, and our name will never die and we will make proud the memories of our parents." ~ Despot Voda 1561

    "The emperor Trajan, after conquering this country, divided it among his soldiers and made it into a Roman colony, so that these Romanians are descendants, as it is said, of these ancient colonists, and they preserve the name of the Romans." ~ 1532, Francesco della Valle Secretary of Aloisio Gritti, a natural son to Doge

  13. #93
    Getwulf's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The migration of vlachs/romanians

    Quote Originally Posted by Carpathian Wolf View Post
    The biggest problems concerning a south to north migration concerning Romanians/Vlachs.

    1. Nobody mentions it...EVER. There is not a SINGLE primary source that mentions a mass scale migration. It would have to have been from Byzantine territory and they took records of everything. The migration would have been HUUUGE, bigger than the Slavic migration. The Romanian population outnumbers all other nations on its borders minus Ukraine ~COMBINED~.

    2. Linguistic. Romanians speak a Latin language. Not just sort of, not just kind of, grammatically along with Sardinian it is the closest living relative of Latin. Although the vocabulary is varied over all, from day to day speech 90 percent of the words are of latin origin. Also considering Romanians speak a latin language, that excludes them from coming from the south where they would have spoken Greek.

    3. Archeological, again this migration would have been massive. Yet there is no shift in material culture or any archeological evidence of such a migration taking place.

    4. What DO the sources say? Every single source on the subject of the origin of Romanians/Vlachs states either a Latin origin, a Dacian origin or a combination of the two.

    So there is no "Daco Roman theory." It's a fact backed up by everything and everyone that ever had any credibility on the subject from Polish chroniclers to Italian humanists to Greek Byzantine writers.
    Mmmm... Was there ever even a Dacian ethnicity or is it just made up due to confusion and maintained by the Roman sources just to simplify things?

    To me it seems the Getae saw which way the wind was blowing. It was either face migrations from the west where those people raided and killed everybody or face migrations from the east where those people raided and killed everybody. There was also Rome... you could try and enter the Empire and try to make some sort of living within it. Eventhough, the Romans were also a$$holes... It was better than certain death and cruel slavery at the hands of impoverished and backwards (although good at raiding and fighting, better than us, just not as good as the Romans ) barbarians. So the lesser evil out of all the three options was Rome. Obviously they went with Rome. There was more to gain by it.
    Last edited by Getwulf; March 07, 2011 at 02:11 PM.
    Sai rodida Guthans!

  14. #94

    Default Re: The migration of vlachs/romanians

    Yes there was. Getae = Dacians and there is not a single damn primary source that states other wise. Stop with the non sense.
    "Mors Certa, Hora Incerta."

    "We are a brave people of a warrior race, descendants of the illustrious Romans, who made the world tremor. And in this way we will make it known to the whole world that we are true Romans and their descendants, and our name will never die and we will make proud the memories of our parents." ~ Despot Voda 1561

    "The emperor Trajan, after conquering this country, divided it among his soldiers and made it into a Roman colony, so that these Romanians are descendants, as it is said, of these ancient colonists, and they preserve the name of the Romans." ~ 1532, Francesco della Valle Secretary of Aloisio Gritti, a natural son to Doge

  15. #95
    Getwulf's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The migration of vlachs/romanians

    Quote Originally Posted by Carpathian Wolf View Post
    Yes there was. Getae = Dacians and there is not a single damn primary source that states other wise. Stop with the non sense.
    Hmmm... I wonder...

    Seeing as they don't pronounce or spell their name in the same way.



    Oh yeah...

    There is also this...

    oversize
    Last edited by Getwulf; March 07, 2011 at 02:17 PM.
    Sai rodida Guthans!

  16. #96

    Default Re: The migration of vlachs/romanians

    Right cause one term is Greek and the other is Latin.


    "ZOMG IN JAPAN THERE IS JAPANESE AND NIPPON! TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF PEOPLE!"

    See my point?
    "Mors Certa, Hora Incerta."

    "We are a brave people of a warrior race, descendants of the illustrious Romans, who made the world tremor. And in this way we will make it known to the whole world that we are true Romans and their descendants, and our name will never die and we will make proud the memories of our parents." ~ Despot Voda 1561

    "The emperor Trajan, after conquering this country, divided it among his soldiers and made it into a Roman colony, so that these Romanians are descendants, as it is said, of these ancient colonists, and they preserve the name of the Romans." ~ 1532, Francesco della Valle Secretary of Aloisio Gritti, a natural son to Doge

  17. #97
    Getwulf's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The migration of vlachs/romanians

    Quote Originally Posted by Carpathian Wolf View Post
    Right cause one term is Greek and the other is Latin.


    "ZOMG IN JAPAN THERE IS JAPANESE AND NIPPON! TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF PEOPLE!"

    See my point?
    I do with Japan...

    But I also think that every Romanian historian is completely retarded. I think that our low standard of living and overall backwardness hasn't really contributed much to the development of the Arts and Social Sciences...
    Sai rodida Guthans!

  18. #98

    Default Re: The migration of vlachs/romanians

    Quote Originally Posted by Getwulf View Post
    I do with Japan...

    But I also think that every Romanian historian is completely retarded. I think that our low standard of living and overall backwardness hasn't really contributed much to the development of the Arts and Social Sciences...
    Speak for yourself.
    "Mors Certa, Hora Incerta."

    "We are a brave people of a warrior race, descendants of the illustrious Romans, who made the world tremor. And in this way we will make it known to the whole world that we are true Romans and their descendants, and our name will never die and we will make proud the memories of our parents." ~ Despot Voda 1561

    "The emperor Trajan, after conquering this country, divided it among his soldiers and made it into a Roman colony, so that these Romanians are descendants, as it is said, of these ancient colonists, and they preserve the name of the Romans." ~ 1532, Francesco della Valle Secretary of Aloisio Gritti, a natural son to Doge

  19. #99
    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
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    Default Re: The migration of vlachs/romanians

    Quote Originally Posted by CiviC View Post
    Maybe you can give us a résumé about official hungarian opinion, not everyone has access to Gy. Kristo wisdom.
    I think I have given this on several occasions already.
    I plan to make an article 'Early transylvania' here on TWC as soon as my schedule allows it.
    That way I don't need to waste my time repeating the same things again and again.
    And so far I am very sincere in trusting that book. I knew that prof and he was basically gathering exact data like an ant.

    (BTW: Kristo's book was translated to english and then to romanian.)
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB HORSEARCHER
    quis enim dubitat quin multis iam saeculis, ex quo vires illius ad Romanorum nomen accesserint, Italia quidem sit gentium domina gloriae vetustate sed Pannonia virtute

    Sorry Armenia, for the rascals who lead us.


  20. #100
    Getwulf's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The migration of vlachs/romanians

    Quote Originally Posted by Carpathian Wolf View Post
    Speak for yourself.
    Hey... Around the 19 th C. AD we start to get some writers but before that... Mmmm...? What...?
    The longest Romanian novel before that was... Neacsu's letter...?

    "Mudromu I plemenitomu, I cistitomu I bogom darovanomu jupan Hanăş Bengner ot Braşov mnogo zdravie ot Nécşu ot Dlăgopole..1
    I pak1 dau ştire domnie tale za lucrul turcilor, cum am auzit eu că împăratul au eşit den Sofiia, şi aimintrea nu e, şi se-au dus în sus pre Dunăre.
    I pak să ştii domniia ta că au venit un om de la Nicopole de miie me-au spus că au văzut cu ochii lor că au trecut ciale corăbii ce ştii şi domniia ta pre Dunăre în sus.
    I pak să ştii că bagă den toate oraşele câte 50 de omin să fie de ajutor în corăbii.
    I pak să ştii cumu se-au prins neşte meşter(i) den Ţarigrad cum vor treace ceale corăbii la locul cela strimtul ce ştii şi domniia ta.
    I pak spui domniie tale de lucrul lui Mahamet beg, cum am auzit de boiari ce sunt megiiaş(i) şi de generemiiu Negre, cum i-au dat împăratul sloboziie lui Mahamet beg, pe io-i va fi voia, pren Ţeara Rumânească, iară el să treacă.
    I pak să ştii domniia ta că are frică mare şi Băsărab de acel lotru de Mahamet beg, mai vârtos de domniile voastre.
    I pak spui domniietale ca mai marele miu, de ce am înţeles şi eu. Eu spui domniietale iară domniiata eşti înţelept şi aceste cuvinte să ţii domniiata la tine, să nu ştie umin mulţi, şi domniile vostre să vă păziţi cum ştiţi mai bine.
    I bog te veselit.1 Amin."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neac%C5%9Fu%27s_letter

    I mean, that's from the 16th C. AD. Besides that we have to rely on everybody's "chronicles" of us which is why nothing makes sense. I mean seriously... Did we even have writing...???
    Sai rodida Guthans!

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