The migration of vlachs/romanians

[Basileos Leandros I]

Soon we'll hear that the carthaginians are our ansesters

I'm descended directly from the Goddess Minerva, you heathen!

[Getwulf]

Wow... Piroska doesn't even really know what Vlachs are...

Here you go honey...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35Nbo...el_video_title



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4BQ2...feature=relmfu

And this one... Traditional Vlach wedding in Greece.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKFMA...eature=related

Ahhh... Yes... ...and now back to us Romanians deceiving everybody!

[Visarion]

My ancesters are from Macedonia, Greece and even if they established long ago in Romania they still speak Romaika alongside Romanian and use the appelative "Romios" when addresing to each other and guess what!? Romaika is Demotic Greek!

The Byzantine Empire was also called Roumania "The land of the Romans" because, yes Byzantines considered themselves Romans! So what are you implying exactly? That Romioi (Roman in Greek, Ottomans used Rum to adress themselvs too, thinking they were Romans, and maybe they were but unfortunatly some other people felt inspired by them and hijacked the appelative)... where where I? oh yes! what are you implying exactly? that Romioi migrated in the North? then why don't we speak an obsolete form of Greek and speak a Neo-Latin language instead pal? Oh by the way the Aromanians are thought to be migrants from South Danube shore or even North one after the Slav invasion. Indeed many people invaded Dacia or Romania, as you preffer but they destroyed and looted the cities from the plains while the Romanised populations migrated in the hills and mountains. You must remember that Migratories only transitated our territory except maybe Goths but they lived in peace with the Dacians with which they drove the Romans away! They made an alliance with the Romanised population from South of the Danube and fought the Sarmatians succesfully! After their victory South Thracians established the basis for the Byzantine Empire while the North ones gained independence and became a shield against migratories... for a while at least. During the Migratories some fled south and became the Aromanians that probably mixed with the Thracian refugees, after Bulgarians no longer wanted to rule alongside Vlach nobility, to be gentle... it was a struggle for power and the Bulgarians won, I don't want to be... you know... anyway there is much to tell but I'm afraid my time is limited...

[iudas]

No one can hope to start a scientific debate about daco-romanian stuff with posting videos and adressing the opposite faction in a duelling manner.

Fixed.

The whole Daco-Roman debate is hopeless. It's a remnant of 19th century romantic historiography, with heavy nationalistic bias on both sides. And both sides lose, since both approach the evidence (which is scare anyway) with a distinct 19th century attitude.

[Basileos Leandros I]

Fixed.

The whole Daco-Roman debate is hopeless. It's a remnant of 19th century romantic historiography, with heavy nationalistic bias on both sides. And both sides lose, since both approach the evidence (which is scare anyway) with a distinct 19th century attitude.

How is it hopeless?

The heavy nationalistic bias disappeared from the books after 1989 and now we rely on proper sources to show us what happened.

[CiviC]

Piroska, did you actually read your "sources"?

Tracing the Vlachs Though History
Roman Era
The maximum extent of the roman Empire in southeastern Europe occurred after 106 AD when conquest of the Dacian people extended the empire from modern Greece to Romania. By all accounts, the Latinized people of the Roman Empire represented both a variety of indigenous people as well as colonists who came into the region (e.g. Magocsi 1993). Under barbarian pressure, the Roman Legions retreated from Dacia (modern Romania) in 217. According to at least Romanian historians, Roman colonists and the Latinized Dacians retreated into the Carpathian Mountains of Transylvania after the Roman Legions withdrew from the area. This view is supported to the extent that archeological evidence does indicate the presence of Latin-speaking people in Transylvania by at least the 8th Century (Carragie 1999).

The first written record of Vlachs north of the Danube River (in Transylvania) is in 1210 (Caragiu 1999). This group has been considered as representing a northward influx of Vlachs from the Asenid Empire and/or Vlachs who had previously retreated into the Carpathian Mountains when the Roman Legions withdrew.

[Getwulf]

My ancesters are from Macedonia, Greece and even if they established long ago in Romania they still speak Romaika alongside Romanian and use the appelative "Romios" when addresing to each other and guess what!? Romaika is Demotic Greek!

The Byzantine Empire was also called Roumania "The land of the Romans" because, yes Byzantines considered themselves Romans! So what are you implying exactly? That Romioi (Roman in Greek, Ottomans used Rum to adress themselvs too, thinking they were Romans, and maybe they were but unfortunatly some other people felt inspired by them and hijacked the appelative)... where where I? oh yes! what are you implying exactly? that Romioi migrated in the North? then why don't we speak an obsolete form of Greek and speak a Neo-Latin language instead pal? Oh by the way the Aromanians are thought to be migrants from South Danube shore or even North one after the Slav invasion. Indeed many people invaded Dacia or Romania, as you preffer but they destroyed and looted the cities from the plains while the Romanised populations migrated in the hills and mountains. You must remember that Migratories only transitated our territory except maybe Goths but they lived in peace with the Dacians with which they drove the Romans away! They made an alliance with the Romanised population from South of the Danube and fought the Sarmatians succesfully! After their victory South Thracians established the basis for the Byzantine Empire while the North ones gained independence and became a shield against migratories... for a while at least. During the Migratories some fled south and became the Aromanians that probably mixed with the Thracian refugees, after Bulgarians no longer wanted to rule alongside Vlach nobility, to be gentle... it was a struggle for power and the Bulgarians won, I don't want to be... you know... anyway there is much to tell but I'm afraid my time is limited...

Romaika...? Isn't Romaika a church language...?

Or are you referring to another language...? Is your language similar to Armanji...?

[Visarion]

no "Armaneaste" is the "Romanian Dialect" spoken by "Armani" in Epirus, Northern Thessaly, Western Macedonia etc. and by the "Armani" that came in Dobrudja after the exchange of populations between Romania and Bulgaria, before WWII.

I am reffering to a very reclusive and isolated community from Dobrudja, Romania that still speaks Romaika from before the Greek Revolution (1821). You probably know that the revolution started from Russia, Romania, Greece with Alexandros Ypsilantis and Eteria... Well my ancestors went from Macedonia, in Russia and then Romania. At least these are the local stories. They wanted to return home but found out that only Moreea was freed and Macedon was still under Ottoman rule... Their goal was the reaunification, revival of the Byzantine Empire. Anyway they speak Romaika, Neo-Byzantine, Koine, as you wish, a language very different from the modern one as Standard Greek is made from Katharevusa and Dimotiki... They only speak Dimotiki because Katharevusa was introduced after they started the campaign in Russia and Romania!

[Getwulf]

no "Armaneaste" is the "Romanian Dialect" spoken by "Armani" in Epirus, Northern Thessaly, Western Macedonia etc. and by the "Armani" that came in Dobrudja after the exchange of populations between Romania and Bulgaria, before WWII.

I am reffering to a very reclusive and isolated community from Dobrudja, Romania that still speaks Romaika from before the Greek Revolution (1821). You probably know that the revolution started from Russia, Romania, Greece with Alexandros Ypsilantis and Eteria... Well my ancestors went from Macedonia, in Russia and then Romania. At least these are the local stories. They wanted to return home but found out that only Moreea was freed and Macedon was still under Ottoman rule... Their goal was the reaunification, revival of the Byzantine Empire. Anyway they speak Romaika, Neo-Byzantine, Koine, as you wish, a language very different from the modern one as Standard Greek is made from Katharevusa and Dimotiki... They only speak Dimotiki because Katharevusa was introduced after they started the campaign in Russia and Romania!

Hmmm... Cool...

Is there any chance that you could give me an example of Romaika...? A phrase or something...? I'm curious...!

[Visarion]

It's basicaly Greek but more consonant and with lownwords from other languages. It is more similar to the Greek Northern Dialects, including Macedonian and Byzantine, in contrast to Modern Greek which is more similar to Ionian-Peloponesian ones, and it presents more vowels, it is more melodic if you want. For example: Horse - Romaika: Algu, Modern Greek: Alogos, Pigeon - Romaika: Plisteri, Modern Greek: Pelesteri, Crazy - Romaika: Tiflo, Modern Greek: Teflio. Romaika presents vowel deletion as it was the "spoken language". You see in Greece there existed two languages in the 19-20th century, the spoken one and the written one. The last used many words from the Archaic forms of Greek to reduce the large number of Turkic/Arabian/Albanian words, to "clean the language". In fact that is what Katharevusa means "the clean one". Katharevusa was introduced after 1821 and it was an artificial language. Anyway even if it was tought in schools and used as an official language, the old one continued to be spoken and with time, the two combined to produce the Modern Greek Language.

[Getwulf]

Katharevusa was introduced after 1821 and it was an artificial language. Anyway even if it was tought in schools and used as an official language, the old one continued to be spoken and with time, the two combined to produce the Modern Greek Language.

Yeah... I remember something about that. The population couldn't quite speak Classical Greek and they had to go back to what was being currently spoken.

[RO Citizen]

It's funny how some dudes (can't call them otherwise) instigate people to spam and flamewar through giving unsupported speculations about a certain people. And it's even funnier when you think the dudes might be Hungarian, where there are quite a few nationalist-extremist dudes, wanting their "stolen" lands back (Transylvania, Slovakia, mainland Croatia, Vojvodina, etc.).

Even if the shepherds might have migrated every season to the Balkan mountains, it doesn't mean most of them didn't come back, or that the WHOLE population migrated through the centuries. Also, there were many Romanic enclaves in the Balkans, but most of them have no link with the Daco-Roman population north of Danube.

Oh, and just to feed the troll (not the OP or anyone else, just an hypothetical troll), Transylvania wasn't empty when the noble migratory Magyars came there and established civilization

[CiviC]

Even if the shepherds might have migrated every season to the Balkan mountains, it doesn't mean most of them didn't come back, or that the WHOLE population migrated through the centuries. Also, there were many Romanic enclaves in the Balkans, but most of them have no link with the Daco-Roman population north of Danube.

This is very true. There are so many differences between Daco-Romanians (Romanians North of Danube) and Aromanians that we may consider them almost as two different ethnicities. First of all Aromanian dialect isn't mutual intelligible with Romanian proper (I can understand very well Italian, but anything in Aromanian except some words, but not an entier phrase). The Aromanian culture is also very different and not at least anthropologically Aromanians look different then Romanians.

So it's very hard for me to beleive Romanians come from Balkans when we have so little in common with Aromanians, the Eastern Romance people that always lived and stayed South of Danube. Even today, Aromanians that migrated in the last century in Romania are a different sub-ethnicity among Romanians.

If Romanians migrated from South of Danube around 1200 AD then there would be many common features between Romanians and Aromanians, still this isn't the case. The first documents in Romanian language appear around 1500, 300 years after the supposed migration of Romanians from Balkans. Well the Romanian language already appears in 1500 as today standard language and having nothing in common with Aromanian. If the split between Romanians and Aromanians was in 1200 AD, then only after 300 years those languages should have been still very similar. The Catalan and Castillian languages expanded on the footsteps of Reconquista without any major split between North and South.

The conclusion for such a big difference between Aromanian and Romanian language proper is the two evolved for a long time separately as descendants of Eastern Romance, North and South of Danube.

[Getwulf]

This is very true. There are so many differences between Daco-Romanians (Romanians North of Danube) and Aromanians that we may consider them almost as two different ethnicities. First of all Aromanian dialect isn't mutual intelligible with Romanian proper (I can understand very well Italian, but anything in Aromanian except some words, but not an entier phrase). The Aromanian culture is also very different and not at least anthropologically Aromanians look different then Romanians.

So it's very hard for me to beleive Romanians come from Balkans when we have so little in common with Aromanians, the Eastern Romance people that always lived and stayed South of Danube. Even today, Aromanians that migrated in the last century in Romania are a different sub-ethnicity among Romanians.

If Romanians migrated from South of Danube around 1200 AD then there would be many common features between Romanians and Aromanians, still this isn't the case. The first documents in Romanian language appear around 1500, 300 years after the supposed migration of Romanians from Balkans. Well the Romanian language already appears in 1500 as today standard language and having nothing in common with Aromanian. If the split between Romanians and Aromanians was in 1200 AD, then only after 300 years those languages should have been still very similar. The Catalan and Castillian languages expanded on the footsteps of Reconquista without any major split between North and South.

The conclusion for such a big difference between Aromanian and Romanian language proper is the two evolved for a long time separately as descendants of Eastern Romance, North and South of Danube.

Oh please...!

Don't be so shallow and don't betray the Aromanians just because Piroska hurt our collective feelings on the issue.

As for Italians... I call BS... Spanish and Portuguese are way closer. In fact some of the Aromanians in those videos actually look like they are Spanish or Portuguese...! I understand Aromanian just fine with my knowledge of Romanian. They have lots of other words but it is a very close language. It was even closer to older Romanian.

Yeah... No big deal... I'm not ashamed to be related to Vlachs, Aromanians etc...

[CiviC]

Oh please...!

Don't be so shallow and don't betray the Aromanians just because Piroska hurt our collective feelings on the issue.

As for Italians... I call BS... Spanish and Portuguese are way closer. In fact some of the Aromanians in those videos actually look like they are Spanish or Portuguese...! I understand Aromanian just fine with my knowledge of Romanian. They have lots of other words but it is a very close language. It was even closer to older Romanian.

Yeah... No big deal... I'm not ashamed to be related to Vlachs, Aromanians etc...

OK, so what was ofensive about Aromanians? I just exposed some facts.

[Getwulf]

OK, so what was ofensive about Aromanians? I just exposed some facts.

The fact that you're willing to sweep them under the rug just so that the Hungarians don't call us Vlach nomads... The Vlachs were quite influential in establishing Romania so let's leave it at that.

[CiviC]

The fact that you're willing to sweep them under the rug just so that the Hungarians don't call us Vlach nomads... The Vlachs were quite influential in establishing Romania so let's leave it at that.

But we're not Vlach sheperds, we're Gothic Normans

[Getwulf]

But we're not Vlach sheperds, we're Gothic Normans

No I gave up the Normand part... those were Dacians. Invaders to the Getic lands.

[CiviC]

No I gave up the Normand part... those were Dacians. Invaders to the Getic lands.

I'm so confused now
I feel like an identity crisis coming back again ...

[Getwulf]

I'm so confused now
I feel like an identity crisis coming back again ...

I know what you mean...

The problem that we have is that our historians were and are retarded. They're also ridiculously biased. I mean... I can't really make sense of anything anymore either.

If you're going to build a country on the Roman model than you're going to be multi-cultural like Rome was. However, the founders of Romania pushed for a Romanian race... made up of Daco-Roman... Which is retarded. Because Daco- was 1 race... While Roman was like 200 different groups of people or so... So it is retarded.

Technically speaking we Romanians don't mix well with others... So mixing with Romans didn't happen well... and it didn't.

What were Dacians...? Who knows...? Very little is left of them... But we have lots from the Goths, including their language and artifacts and history and so on... They tell us they're Getae... Getae predate everyone in the region. Also, Getae weren't exactly friendly with the Dacians. More friendly with the Romans... and they willingly entered the Roman empire but... when the Romans broke the deal... the Getae rebelled and screwed up Rome good... they even sacked the city.

Makes you wonder right...?

Also, you know the national Dacian treasure... Closca cu Puii de Aur...? Yeah... Well... that's actually a Gothic treasure.

I don't mean to upset you... Hey maybe you're a Dacian. That's fine... Or a Sarmatian or a Celt or a Bulgarian or a whatever... There is nothing wrong with that... You can go ahead and be whatever you feel is right.