6.0 map

[Vangelis]

Hello,
I saw some screens of the map you'll be using, i like it alot but the shores look so straight (straight lines). Will this be fixed, so there'll be beautifull shores?
And another thing, will the brits invade the european mainland? or will they just sit there and wait to be conquered like in 5.0?
thx in advance

[lt1956]

I can care less about the shores. lol But I think they change from area to area. As for the british they stay on their Island, just like real life. But that Island is a prize in a way, I mean why did Rome conquer it? Itswas just mud huts, and yet it was a little jewel standing in the water Begging them to conquer them. lol Same in SPQR, but really its a gameplay option, because briton will stay ally with Germans and gauls and keep good trade between them and not drain their resources making it easier for the roman player to take out gaul. Too many factions can be just as bad as too few, as the AI fighting itself makes and easier game for the player.

Lt

[dabaz]

picture?

[GambleFish]

Yeah where are the pics? I haven't seen 'em.

[lt1956]

I have no idea what picture he speaks of. I assumed he was speaking of Icetorques map?

[Vangelis]

Yes the map i mean is this map: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=42669

[Zenith Darksea]

That's bizarre... he's got Thessalonica in Moesia! What's going on with that? I like the idea of the WarMap, but I couldn't take it myself. It looks SOOO ugly. Plus the cities seem to show up in weird positions, and the geography is appallingly inaccurate. I'd prefer the next RTR map, myself.

[jegui]

imo playability is more important than cosmetics and realism... if difficulty and AI behaviour changes twofold with this enlarged map than I'm 200% up for it... That's what SPQR is all about ;-) The map also looks like if you have to tactically think of your moves on a regional scale or else get overwhelmed by invading forces ;-)

RTR is very nice with the music atmosphere, faction realism and campaign build up but I find it very poor on the battle side... AOR is very nice but it constrains army build up...

[Zenith Darksea]

No, I'm talking about the next version of RTR that isn't out yet, and I'm merely talking about their map. Personally, I couldn't countenance having such an ugly and inaccurate map as the WarMap. Maybe if all the cities and geographical features were put in their correct places, and a serious amount of work was done on the appearance, it would be good, but I'd prefer to have something that doesn't make me recoil in horror.

[repman]

The Map I use in my AddOn BareBonesWars_v2 (for vlad mod for rome 1.2) is BareBones1.2 (not the last version 1.4 for rome1.5 without landbridges and nice shores):
- yes its partially geographically incorrect. Webbird is working on a better one
- for the timeframe -270 the fractions are not totally correct posted (some changes in my next version)
- its not ugly (ignore shoreline, are we surfers?). Now the proportions between persons, boats (riczu mod in my next version), mountains,.... is nice
- more tactically and logistics thinking is necessary

I'm sure Lt will work for his mod on the deficits of this map and it will be the best

repman

[lt1956]

Yep not everything matches up perfect in the map, but its in good enough locations. Think about the vanilla and how bad it was? Look how close one city was to the next and also the lack of logistics. Sometimes you have to go with gameplay over looks, This is shown by what happen with the last version of RTR and how unpopular it was with alot of people, where the previous version was ok to most.

As for the new version, I have no Idea, I know that EB has a different historical map also, but Icetorque was right about one thing, too many cities makes too much money, too many sieges, and over all the game is easier. The logistics of strung out cities really does change things, and there are more open field battles and the terrain in the battlemap is good, making battles easier to fight just as it would be back then. No offense but you know ANY generals that didnt want flat land with a rolling hill to fight on? The whole Ideal is to pick your ground since we rally cant do that in RTW, the new map makes a good choice for use.

Personally as to shorelines. I can CARE LESS about those, heck I played with RTW 1.2 with the squre shorelines and It didnt bother me one bit, When fighting SPQR battle of 12,000 men who has time to enjoy the view? Especially if you never Pause (which I consider cheating). Overall I go by feel and the new map slows the AI expansion a little, slows player expansion, lessens siege battles, and requires the player to be more aware of logistics. To me that is a 8 out of 10, 2 marks removed for some historical issues. But unless your heavy into geography etc, most would NEVER notice the difference. ;-)

P.S. The only land bridge in my map is connecting the Islands to the north in Germany, I didnt do land bridges in sicilia or other areas because of AI behavior and because the map has larger gaps between the continents now. So it wouldnt look right to me.

[Hoffman]

I just have problems with Sicily being so close to North Africa, and Corsica being so close to Italy, it irks me somewhat, how hard is it to put a little ocean between them?

[lt1956]

Um... Thats not my map? There is a giant gap between Africa and Sicilia? My map is a little different than Barebones and the other map you seen. Mine looks just like the vanilla just Larger is all.

Lt

[repman]

For Clarification: I'm using the Barebones1.2 Map with landbridges, because my Addon is for vlad mod for Rome 1.2 which needs landbridges that the AI can expand properly.
For Rome 1.5 landbridges are probably no more necessary because the AI expands now over the see (I have done quick tests with my addon and I'm not satisfied about the AI expansion, so maybe landbridges are still necessary). So Lt is using probably BarBones 1.4 with no landbridges as a starting point. Or the modification tirlondubh from webbird (I prefer now because more adequate for timeframe -270 BC).

repman

[Finnbat]

As for the british they stay on their Island, just like real life. But that Island is a prize in a way, I mean why did Rome conquer it? Itswas just mud huts, and yet it was a little jewel standing in the water Begging them to conquer them.

Lt

Emperor Glaudius conquers Britain because his grandmother Livia allways joked when someone could not do anything right, it was like Glaudius try to invade Britain, impossible she mean. After Glaudius was to become emperor he had to show that he can do it.

[Zenith Darksea]

Well, my own point about the WarMap being geographically inaccurate still stands. 'Good enough locations'? I think not. I know that Vanilla made mistakes, but some of those cities are wildly out of place. I mean, they have Thessalonica about five hundred miles North of where it really is! Thessalonica should be on the coast, not in the Dardanian mountains! And take a look at the Peloponnesos - not only is it in the wrong shape, it's got non-existent mountains and doesn't have the real moutains! Not only that, but Corinth is again in entirely the wrong place. I understand your point about the old RTR maps completely (far too many cities), but I don't think that this map is the way to go. Incidentally, when I said that the next RTR map will be larger, I didn't mean in the way that EB's is larger (ie. covers more of the Earth, though in fact it does), but is actually larger in scale. So there is much more distance between cities. Not only that, but it looks nice, has accurate geography and is much more atmospheric. Though I don't suppose they'd let you use it, alas. What I would argue though is that before you implement the WarMap, you make enormous changes to at least make it accurate and a little less dog-ugly.

On the point of EB's map, I really like it. More cities (so there's more to conquer and more interest than in Vanilla), but not so many that it harms gameplay. I quite enjoy that.

[dabaz]

I think that if LT already got SPQR work with this map, then so be it. To make a mod compatible with a new map takes a lot of work, many adjustments need to be made. anyway, i trust LT to make this mod even more enjoyable.

[repman]

In my Version BareBonesWars_v4 i'm using now the adapted map Tirlondubh 1.0 from Webbird of the original BareBones Map. He has done a lot of geographical/historical corrections for the timeframe -265 BC. I fixed minor bugs with his map, reincluded landbridges (for rome 1.2),.....
Although you can play now two campaigns: 3Families or UnifiedRome

repman

[lt1956]

Problem is historically almost all the cities in greece in the game are coastal cities. lol I think Icetorque moved them away from eachother for gameplay reasons. He might of been better to choose different city close to that area instead of vanilla cities. I agree some of the cities are off their exact area in real life, but a few cities are not that bad IMO, the coast lines not being perfectly smooth etc is worth nothing to me, as you can make the continent the chape of a turd and if it plays well its good for me. lol Overall the map is accurate "enough" everything is close enough to the area, Heck I dont even know some of these cities and where they were in real life speaking of the scythian and some eastern ones.

I mean I feel sometimes we can take REALISM too far and that is where I feel it can hurt a mod, would I have liked it to be more accuate Sure, more pretty on the coast sure, am I going to spends months changing the map, NO! Reason is simple its alot of working moving cities and I would have to redo the garrison script because I had to manually get the coordinates of EVERYONE of the 165 cities in the game. Moving a city means redoing not only the map but also new coordinates and when you move one you might as well move all later. Then there are Bugs and that is something I do not like. So for me If I could have had the map even better I would use it, but Webbirds is a BETA version and I am not sure and he is not sure if some small bugs can pop up. I ironed out some of the bugs etc in the Warmap 1.4 so I feel safe using it. Major changes like Maps are serious changes not minor. Also Webbird added more provinces and cities which mean new names that mercs have to be recruited in and new coordinates and new ALOT of things to change, and any major changes can make bugs in a mod.

My advice is Simple Zenith Darksea, you dont like the Map dont play MY mod. If you want to add another map, nock yourself out, but the garrison script will NOT work and I dont think you'll edit the script to make it work and its over 100,000 lines of code. Also my units are not all vanilla names etc. So I suggest if you wish to play SPQR 6.0 play as its released. If the map is too much for you, then Play RTR or EB They are both wonder and historical mods, but to be honest I prefer SPQR or I wouldnt have made it.

Lt

[Zenith Darksea]

That's fair enough, I don't play it anyway. I'm not a fan at all of the current RTR map though (as you say, far too constricted), though I am quite partial to EB.