Royalist France

[Inkie]

Greetings all,

We're currently debating the extent of the inclusion of royalist France in ROW 1.0 therefore we have two options before us:

-Historical accuracy, Royalist faction is only present in the revolutionary campaign/custom battles and in small presence, their playability is sacrificed for Russia's
-Gameplay, Royalists are playable in EotR and are of a decent strength in both.

The royalists are a difficult faction to include, whilst respecting history. They didn't own any specific territory in 1790 (which is when the mod will be set) and their primary contributions to the Allies' military was only off a few officers. So I decided a poll would make sense to let you all decide how important the faction is for you in the campaign, or how popular the EotR campaign would be.

[Lord Horatius]

Given that once the first turn is completed the AI throws historical accuracy out the window (Or the player does, whichever happens first,) I vote for playable royalists.

[Marshall Soult]

Considering that I wont play them that much, surely less than the Ruskies, i vote against.
Where you intend to "base" them in the grand campaign? Brittany?

[Inkie]

For Historical accuracy, they wouldn't be present in EotR, and in the revolutionary camp yes they would probably only have a presence in Brittany and perhaps the Marseilles area, to give them at least a bit of strength.
For playability, in EotR they would have a few regions, to make them (although very difficult) playable, and in the revolutionary camp they would probably be quite powerful, something more like the way they are now in the Beta.

[♔Oggie♔]

I want playable royalists! Vive le roi

[Marshall Soult]

For Historical accuracy, they wouldn't be present in EotR, and in the revolutionary camp yes they would probably only have a presence in Brittany and perhaps the Marseilles area, to give them at least a bit of strength.
For playability, in EotR they would have a few regions, to make them (although very difficult) playable, and in the revolutionary camp they would probably be quite powerful, something more like the way they are now in the Beta.

At least, make their life really uncomfortable in the grand campaign! When I plays with the coalition i want to smash dirty revolutionaries, not good-looking white coats!
Vivat Kaiser!
soult

[EmperorBatman999]

Just note, if Husserl is going to make the startpos for us, Russia will be playable along with the Royalists.

Also, the Royalists will probably hold historically pro-Royalist regions in France. The Revolutionaries would hold Paris. That would mean the Revolutionaries would need to attempt a "break out" of Paris.

How did the people in and around Marseilles feel about the Revolution?

[Inkie]

They were strongly in favour of it, but revolted when the Girondists were massacred, therefore they were rather moderate. Toulon, however, harboured a powerful royalist faction.

[Geronimo2006]

Playable as a faction fighting the Revolutionary Government. Chouan/Vendeen sources would be good too especially for generals like Charette.

[EmperorBatman999]

After Top Cat putting diseases into NTW, I wonder if it'd be possible to script rebellions. Like if the Revolutionaries control enough French territories, Royalist forces can appear in places like the Vendee like rebellions to make it more challenging to the Revolutionaries or give the Royalist player a helping hand.

I know that's not what really happened, but unless we can add a tech for the Guillotine and mass paranoia and script so after those techs are researched the rebelllions occur, I doubt we can really make that happen. I also doubt techs will make it into the next beta. I don't have an LME-sized team as you can see.

[ambien]

I posted this elsewhere, but why not have something like this:

The game should start in July 1789. The Royalists hold all territory, but the revolutionaries start with an army (composed of two units of sans culottes, one national guard unit, and General Lafayette) just outside Paris. Revolutionaries have the following technologies: Declaration of the Rights of Man (happiness +5 to nobility, +10 to commoners, designed to make it easier to raise taxes), Taxation (makes tax collection more efficient) and National Guard (can raise 1 relatively cheap, but somewhat ineffective national guard unit per turn in each city held, or something like that). The revolutionaries enter Paris on the first turn, and the garrison of Paris (one line infantry unit, one artillery unit, one cav unit and the Gardes Francaises) defects to the Revolution (because historically, the gardes francais played a key role in teh storming of the bastille). Cut scene: the fall of the Bastille!

The royalist main army is Prince de Conde, Swiss Guard, 2 heavy cav units, 1 hussar unit, and 2 line infantry (and maybe an artillery unit). This army begins in Provence (or somewhere far enough from Paris that the army can't reach Paris in 1 turn). Royalist line infantry garrison each city held (except Paris). Royalists are nearly bankrupt.

Revolutionaries start with several provocateurs, including Camille Desmoulins, to spread the revolution around France. If a particular city revolts, the garrison may defect, unless there is more than one royalist unit there. So, if you are a royalist, you have to decide how you want to consolidate your forces--do you leave only one unit to garrison each city, risking that the unit will defect? But spreading your forces around to prevent revolution could leave your main army a bit thin.

If you are playing as an enemy of the Republic (i.e. Austria) and the royalists have been driven from France, and you declare war on Rev France, a (smallish to medium-sized) royalist army led by Prince de Conde appears in your territory as your ally. If you take back French territories, you have the option of giving them to the royalist faction or taking them as your own (if you take them as your own, the royalist army will turn on you). Likewise, if you are playing as royalist France, and you lose all your territory, your army will reappear in a country hostile to the republic, so you will get the chance to reconquer the territories you lost.

Also, historically in 1789, some of the monarchies of Europe were favorably disposed to the Revolution (or at least they were not so hostile that they declared war immediately). But as the Revolution became more radical, they came to fear the revolution.

With that background, for the mod you could have certain revolutionary "technologies" that create positive effects for the spread of the revolution in France (such as land reforms that take property from the church and give it to the peasants), but that cause severely negative diplomatic effects with respect to certain countries (primarily Austria and Prussia). So in that way, you consolidate the revolution against the Royalists, but make it more likely that you will be invaded by foreign countries (if you are playing as rev France). If you are playing as an "enemy" of the revolution, the spread of the revolution might bring you allies againt rev France; but if you declare war before the revolution becomes radicalized, you may find yourself diplomatically isolated and may cause severe downgrades in the happiness of the noble and lower classes in your own country (which could spark a revolution in your capital).

If it is not feasible to do this using research technologies, you could use automatic triggering events to the same effect (some of those triggering events could be the appearance of French emigres to the court of your king who are ready to enlist in your army, which will make your people more hostile to rev France and decrease the chance the declaring war on France will spark revolution in your capital). You could also have a triggering event that causes certian neutral countries not otherwise hostile to revolutionary France to declare war on revolutionary France. That event could/should be the execution of Louis XVI or Marie Antoinette.

Please take these ideas for what they are worth (may be too complicated to implement), but I hope at lease some of them are interesting.

[ambien]

Otherwise, if you start the game in 1790 or later, it wouldn't make sense historically to have a royalist faction. But you could still include emigree royalist units in non-french armies

[EmperorBatman999]

I was thinking the game should begin when the Paris Comitee takes control of the city after the Bastille falls. Due to hard coded rules, every faction needs a home region. Also, it has been decided that the General Assembly will be representing the faction leader and main general (again hard coded), however, the Assembly will have a trait that prevents them from moving from it's position outside Paris.

[Inkie]

Otherwise, if you start the game in 1790 or later, it wouldn't make sense historically to have a royalist faction. But you could still include emigree royalist units in non-french armies

I just checked out your data, + rep for that
The Declaration of the rights of man should definitely be a faction specific research, among others, but perhaps not effective to such an extent: After a while most of the French populatuion became disillusioned with the ongoing war and such heavy taxes, which is why quite a substantial amount of the French army had to be constantly stationed in France, to quell the near constant dissent.
Perhaps for the revolutionaries high taxes should be acceptable at first, but discontent will steadily grow as long as they are kept high.
As for the provocateurs, Emperor Batman proposed that, and it sounds good, I'd just have to actually buy the DLC first...Not sure how many people own that, but it shouldnt be a problem if people are willing to buy it to play the mod.
Also, I agree with your idea for the revolutionary tech, perhaps include some notable radicalising reforms (or executions) which would take a single turn to research, and which make relations steadily decrease with the monarchies of Europe.
The church's property being handed to the State could be a tech and also a quest: Upon completion, it would grant the player large amounts of money.

[Marshall Soult]

And what about making Brittany or the Marseille area highly unstable and prone to a royalist counter-revolution? Something of extremely weak if not properly guided, because as I already said, when i play as the coalition, it would be annoying to deal too often with royalist france instead of fighting against robespierre's guys!

[Inkie]

Dont worry, as Austria and Russia you should already have the Turks and the Poles to deal with, and by then I'm sure the blues will have dealth with the whites

[ambien]

I was thinking the game should begin when the Paris Comitee takes control of the city after the Bastille falls. Due to hard coded rules, every faction needs a home region. Also, it has been decided that the General Assembly will be representing the faction leader and main general (again hard coded), however, the Assembly will have a trait that prevents them from moving from it's position outside Paris.

If it's hardcoded that every faction must have a capital, I suppose Marseille could be the capital for royalist france since the head of the faction is the comte de provence (who later became louis xviii), right?

[Marshall Soult]

If it's hardcoded that every faction must have a capital, I suppose Marseille could be the capital for royalist france since the head of the faction is the comte de provence (who later became louis xviii), right?

I dont know if the title of Comte de Provence was still related in any way with the Marseille area, i think it was rather an honorific title, just like the Prince of Wales.

soult

[ambien]

I dont know if the title of Comte de Provence was still related in any way with the Marseille area, i think it was rather an honorific title, just like the Prince of Wales.

soult

I think you're right. Versailles would be more appropriate, but I don't think that exists in the game.

[Marshall Soult]

since the grand campaign starts in 1790, the Royalists should be based at Bordeaux or Rennes, the strong points of the chouan counter-revolution