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Thread: The Kingdom of Jerusalem; proposals for 2.3 and finishing faction for 3.0

  1. #1
    Dago Red's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default The Kingdom of Jerusalem; proposals for 2.3 and finishing faction for 3.0

    The original thrust of Broken Crescent seemed to focus on the conflict in the Holy Land, the Kingdom of Jerusalem and their allies and the Ayyubid Sultanate and their allies. These factions are well fleshed out for the most part and many of the game events center in the area. This was a wise choice -- being a draw and fascination for many. I have been playing other factions, and learned much about the world, but have come back to the age old desire to either:

    1. Run the Crusader dogs back into the sea, for ever do they need a good bathing --or
    2. Carve out a new Christian kingdom with them and their splendorous knights and magnificent banners.

    And I have found some things lacking in the KoJ I didn't notice in my brief time with the faction before. There is a lot of great work done, and without it I would not have even found things unfinished because it is the very wonderful foundations already here which have gotten my mind working. With this inkling (which I will explain in detail) along with several books I have acquired, I will lay out some ideas based on what is already here in BC 2.2 to finish this great and popular faction.

    But firstly, my great Sultan, I will begin with the basics, then move to broader ideas for the faction in a later post. The following are fix proposals for the current version (2.02) or to be included with 2.3.

    The Knights of Outremer


    Currently, the dismounted Knights of Outremer are not available in game for the player to recruit, due to an oversight in the EDU/EDB(?). You might occaisionally find one unit in a Crusader army that arrives from Europe, but that's it, and this is an error, as Knights of Outremer were just that: knights from Outremer of mixed descent, some European families that settled there in the First Crusade, and other wealthy Christian men of the region. They represent the more integrated Christian Europeans, even with flourishes of Eastern and Muslim influences in their dress* and weaponry.

    Outremer: French for "across the sea" referred to the states created and held by Crusaders and their descendants in the Middle East between 1098, during the First Crusade, and 1489, when Cyprus passed to Venice.

    These knights should be integral to a KoJ campaign in theme and realism. Not being able to field them is a major flaw and disadvantage for the KoJ, robbing the player of a solid middle game unit -- they are also the only knightly unit with a mace, and a bonus in deserts, 2 very applicable features.


    Proposal: Fix dismounted knights of Outremer in KoJ recruitment, adding them in game. Add to city barracks tier 3 or 4 -- this unit represents secular knights from the region, tied to the land and local fiefs, not men shipped in from Europe nor are they a part of the various religious orders.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Images from custom battle, where you can recruit them from KoJ roster.



    *Though it is one of my favorite looking units, and brilliantly diversified in skins, the influence of middle eastern dress is not well represented in the current unit, something I will address later.

    If these knights are not fixed and made recruitable by the player, I will be forced to retreat to Cyprus and take up unsavory practices, piracy, building lesbian harems and the like... and that won't be good for the mod now will it? You'll never get me out of there, it is too well fortified.


    Latin Longbowmen


    Yes, yes crossbowmen are all the rage in Outremer, but the common longbowmen made up ranks of Crusader armies through until the very end, hundreds of years past the time frame here. Many were armed with longbows and a variety of lesser quality melee weapons. A similar situation, with the dismounted knights, these lowly, but tactically valuable men show up in Crusading armies on the rare occasion, but the player cannot recruit them. For vanilla skins they are pretty good and in fact have more realistic medieval leggings (chausses and hose) than other units. They can provide MUCH needed flame fire power in the early game and their wooden stakes make them tactically fun to use. It is a shame to have such tactical options in the gameplay, and not be able to use them.

    Proposal: Make recruitable at KoJ AoR Ports, tier 2, before Crusader Sergeants.
    - Initial cost should be much higher than other comparable bowmen, to reflect some Lord's expenses shipping them all that way.

    - Upkeep reduced from comparable bowmen. These common men do not represent any loss to the Kingdom's labor or agricultural force.

    Mounted Sergeants

    Not recruitable by the player. There is a glaring lack of light and medium horse for the KoJ. Aside from the mounted brother sergeants of the Hospitallers I cannot think of one. Unlike the other units, I've not noticed them in game anywhere.

    Proposal: Make recruitable by player at tier 2 stables.


    Outremer Swordsmen

    The cities and castles of Outremer were often marked by a shortage of men. Luckily for them, many were well equipped and armed by sea from ports all across the western world and the Mediterranean. Most historians argue that their arms and armor were generally superior to their foes (apart from some fiercesomely armed and armored elites). So gentlemen, it stands to reason that this unit shouldn't suck so bad!

    Proposal: Decrease the numbers of men in this unit, increase attack. Give these regionally bred men bonus in desert.


    Last edited by Dago Red; February 20, 2011 at 04:51 PM. Reason: Added bonus action spoiler ;)

  2. #2
    Dago Red's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Jerusalem; proposals for 2.3 and finishing faction for 3.0

    (Saved, pretty please for part 2. And further proposals complete with pictures, for 3.0.)

    Early Knight of Outremer (1190AD)wears a quilted gambeson from the Middle East of fine Egyptian cotton. He also wears a cloth band around his helm in the Eastern style. [Osp. illustration by C.Hook]


    As promised, I would like to present more of this proposal for finishing the Kingdom of Jerusalem. Unlike the first post which was geared toward immediate fixes for 2.2/2.3, this concerns ideas for 3.0. The easiest way to start is with the basics, the units. The units form the core of how one plays the faction, and let's face it, BC like any mod built on MTWII is a game about units at it's heart with events and diplomacy and other aspects frilled up around them.

    This is all based on infrastructure which already exists in the game, and elements which were begun by someone else but not quite fleshed out. The concept is as follows; that the KoJ is made up of 4 categories of units which serve different purposes. Exploiting these and drawing sharp distinctions can bring out a greater gameplay experience (including different recruitment areas and strategies) while holding to historical facts. By viewing these units into 4 categories we can isolate the different recruitment methods, limitations, strengths and weaknesses.

    KoJ unit Categories


    1. "Latin." These represent a broad range of Europeans who've come to the east for some lord, for prestige, glory, or God. They form the early/middle backbone of the KoJ roster, but due to their limited numbers and narrow skill sets they must be augmented by others. Franks or Franj may be better terms (depending on the scholar or point of view) but BC has already chosen to use "latin" over other terms.

    Recruited from: KoJ starting regions (4 in 3.0), various buildings.

    Examples are Sergeant Spearmen, Latin halberdiers, Norman knights.

    2. Outremer. Men in this category represent those who were born in Outremer (French for overseas, and what Europeans in the Middle Ages called the Christian holdings in the Mediterranean and Middle East), unlike their "Latin" brethren who were born in Europe. They may even have some Middle Eastern ancestry. In fact, the Poulains are lower knights of mixed ethnicity. As the kingdom of Jerusalem persists, these men become the middle/late backbone of it's forces. They vary widely in quality from some of the poorest troops to some of the KoJ's best.

    Recruited from: Starting regions plus all KoJ extended AOR regions, in barracks, ranges, and stables.

    Examples are Levantine crossbowmen, Turkopoles, Outremer swordsmen, Poulain men-at-arms, Knights of Outremer.



    3. Knightly Order. Along with secular knights (represented by Knights of Outremer, Latin knights) the military religious orders founded in Outremer are the muscle of the KoJ. Along with their secular brethren they are the best fighters of the KoJ, and among the best in the world. Unlike the secular knights, they are highly organized, and uniformly armed & equipped.

    Recruited from: Starting regions with some availability in extended AOR, in Order specific buildings.

    The orders are: Templar, Hospitaller, and Teutonic.


    4. Crusader.
    These men represent a broad swath of Europeans
    (Genoese, Normans, Flemish, Franks, Germans, etc) fresh off the boats to the Holy Land, who have taken up the cross. They do not impact loss of labor or mercantile activity and so their upkeep is minimal, but their starting cost is high to represent the expense of taking the voyage. Due to the lack of manpower in the KoJ, they may be an early lifeline for the KoJ and form a continual stream of fighters throughout all periods.

    Recruited from: Starting regions and extended AOR, Ports only.

    Examples are Latin longbowmen, Crusader Sergeants.





    The KoJ is faced with many challenges from the outset. The general idea here is to provide different ways to alleviate them. With such limited recruitment at the outset, in order to augment the "latin" forces, crusading troops will be available early at ports. I have further ideas for other existing units to be available there. The player can concentrate on growing the knightly orders but that will take time. The best Outremer troops are not available at the start of the game, serving as a kind of reorganisation of the KoJ's armies once these homegrown, fief owning knights come into their own, as in history -- and provide more dismounted, siege warfare-based heavy infantry.


    Last edited by Dago Red; April 03, 2011 at 11:16 PM.

  3. #3
    wudang_clown's Avatar Fire Is Inspirational
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Jerusalem; proposals for 2.3 and finishing faction for 3.0

    Thanks for invaluable insight of flaws in 2.02; we will certainly fix those issues concerning dismounted Knights of Outremer and Mounted Sergeants.

    I'm not sure about Latin Longbowmen, as that unit seems to be outdated in terms of workmanship. We'll see.

    One thing I certainly don't agree is that "The original thrust of Broken Crescent seemed to focus on the conflict in the Holy Land". In my opinion that's the Middle East which is the main area of interest in BC, and as we know it's not limited to the Holy Land, but - depending on definition - is equal to area including Central Asia. This is something I will always be arguing for, though we don't have to argue right now and here - I just wanted to mark my opinion.

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    Dago Red's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Jerusalem; proposals for 2.3 and finishing faction for 3.0

    Thanks for taking a look Wudang. I will try to source more and you will see where I'm going with some of these proposals for a broader look at the KoJ's unit roster, and the unique way it is put together - with troops raised in Outremer, and those shipped in on Crusade. ...

    What I meant by the original thrust comment is just that it seems to me that a early priority was getting the Crusades aspect of the game fully implemented before going on to other things. Most probably see the KoJ and Ayyubids as finished factions, as compared to the kypchaks or Makurians for example. You also have the Crusades game events and the very cool Papal aid "buildings," and the religious supporters, the nobles recruitable from churches/mosques etc. Lots of good stuff. And now it seems like the team is focusing on other areas and factions that didn't get as much attention yet, which is great. unfortunately I know little of the rest of the areas and factions, but having been reading books about the Crusades (western and eastern sources) for a few years I know a bit about Turks of Rum and Ayyubids, and of course, the KoJ. Hopefully I can help add to them, with this a bit!

  5. #5
    wudang_clown's Avatar Fire Is Inspirational
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Jerusalem; proposals for 2.3 and finishing faction for 3.0

    I see. Well, in that sense you are right. Keep it up and give us more feedback.

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  6. #6

    Default Re: The Kingdom of Jerusalem; proposals for 2.3 and finishing faction for 3.0

    Also, I would like to note that the missing units in the campaign number far more than just the ones listed here.
    The Kypchaks, for example, are missing their Nomad Lancer cavalry(It's their low tier light lance cav.)You start with 2 of these units in a stack near Aqmesit/Caffa, and those are the only two you get, barring mission rewards.
    There's a host of other units that did not make it to the campaign, I would list them all, but as I have already modified my EDB file to make them available in the campaign, I have forgotten which ones were missing

    Also, Dago, would you care to list the books that you've acquired? I would like to read them, and I am particularly curious about the longbowmen, as to my knowledge, such archers did not exist in the games current time frame, at least not at the beginning.
    Perhaps we could add an event to the game that appears in the 13th century that allows them to be trained?
    Last edited by Zippy; February 20, 2011 at 12:44 AM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Kingdom of Jerusalem; proposals for 2.3 and finishing faction for 3.0

    I believe Welsh longbowmen first appeared in the Levant during the Third Crusade? I could be wrong.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: The Kingdom of Jerusalem; proposals for 2.3 and finishing faction for 3.0

    Huh. I didn't think that longbows were even used by the Crusaders. After all, there aren't any famous battles fought in the Levant that featured the use of large numbers of longbowmen.

  9. #9

    Default Re: The Kingdom of Jerusalem; proposals for 2.3 and finishing faction for 3.0

    Well certainly not widespread, but there was a contingent in Richard III's army if I'm not mistaken.
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    Dago Red's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Jerusalem; proposals for 2.3 and finishing faction for 3.0

    Greetings gentlemen, thanks for ensuing comments. As for the longbows I assure you they were widespread. Just not a knightly or sexy weapon, used by the poorest of men most of the time. Where the crossbow was, as I said, all the rage and a newer weapon still developing and making advancements, the prominence of the European (English/Welsh)longbow was in fact still to come -- roughly from 1200 to 1500. Of course there were longbows a plenty in the European born forces, they just weren't as good or as effective of a military tool as their enemies (until the British perfected it, but we're talking about "latin longbowmen" here which, while a broad term describing a huge range of people from western Europe, does not include the British). Bows were brought on crusade for hunting even if not for war -- it's safe to say everyone had one, even knights. And the poor man, who only had a bow, that's what he fought with. It was an ancient weapon whose time of infamy was still yet to come in Europe, this games time frame sits squarely in it, as did the real life Crusades.

    But don't just take my mix common sense word for it ; )

    Early source:
    One additional form of weaponry available to both knights and infantry was the bow. Archers, generally operating longbows of about 2 meters in length and capable of delivering arrows to a distance of 300 meters, were a common feature of most infantry forces. being cheap to make, relatively easy to maintain, and useful as a hunting tool, these bows were the mainstay of poorer elements within an army of the First Crusade
    -page 53, "The First Crusade. A new History" Thomas Asbridge, Oxford University Press

    Later source:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Image: Crusader archer with longbow. German, 1200 AD.
    Last edited by Dago Red; February 20, 2011 at 12:15 PM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: The Kingdom of Jerusalem; proposals for 2.3 and finishing faction for 3.0

    I agree with wudang, that unit looks like a modified vanilla re-texture of some sort. If we are to have longbows for KoJ I'd like to see a reworked or completely new unit for them.

    I totally agree with you about the Outremer Knights. But unfortunately they won't be fixed for 2.3 as it is too much work.

    @Zippy, I fail to see what units (all right, we know that those Kypchak lancers and KoJ knights are missing, but what else?) you are talkign about. Can you, please, give at least one example of a unit that is missing other than those named?
    Last edited by Neige; February 20, 2011 at 12:50 PM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: The Kingdom of Jerusalem; proposals for 2.3 and finishing faction for 3.0

    suggestion #1: give them Antioch, reduce starting units
    reason: the KOJ starts out with many expensive units which plummets the faction into serious debt in the first couple of turns, basically paralyzing the faction. Antioch is a huge money maker and having it under 'rebel' control does not make any sense. This saves players from disbanding a bunch of units at the start just to be able to function in the next few turns.

    suggestion #2: new unit, Jerusalem Guardsmen (tier 4)*.
    reason: If you take a look at the unit description of the Dismounted Knights of KOJ you will find something very odd; it is describing a non-existing unit titled 'Jerusalem Guard'. The Jerusalem Guard/smen should be what the dismounted koj knights are now, a heavy spear unit (with matching voice! not saying "KNIGHTS!"), and the dismounted knights of koj should be a heavy infantry unit, swordsmen, very expensive, very elite, with matching voice and appropriate description. Summary--> duplicate the existing dismounted knights of koj unit, label one as Jerusalem Guardsmen, keep the other as DKJ but with swords instead of those unique spears.

    *Restrict all "...of Jerusalem" type units to Jerusalem (i think the hidden_resource label is 'city_jerusalem'), so this should include Knights of Jerusalem, Dismounted Knights of Jerusalem and Jerusalem Guardsmen

    suggestion #3: additional available unit--> levy Mediterranean archers (cities only, barracks tier 2)
    reason: to make settlement defense a bit more realistic... crossbowmen apparently can't aim up and over the battlements so it makes them useless in the defense of cities/castles. also, on the battlefield, unless crossbowmen are placed so they are slightly elevated above the heads of units in front of them or are at the head of the army, crossbowmen have the same issue with firing, so this would help the koj have more effective missile units aside from the tier 3 turkopole archers. Like the units Dago Red has already mentioned, the levy med archers are already on the koj unit roster and sometimes pop up in rebel latin armies but are unavailable in-game. Also, if done correctly (perhaps with a reskin or two... weapon and unit), this will appease Dago Red's request for longbowmen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dago Red View Post
    Of course there were longbows a plenty in the European born forces, they just weren't as good or as effective of a military tool as their enemies (until the British perfected it, but we're talking about "latin longbowmen" here which, while a broad term describing a huge range of people from western Europe, does not include the British). Bows were brought on crusade for hunting even if not for war -- it's safe to say everyone had one, even knights. And the poor man (AKA LEVY ARCHERS), who only had a bow, that's what he fought with.
    And,

    Quote Originally Posted by Neige Noire View Post
    I totally agree with you about the Outremer Knights. But unfortunately they won't be fixed for 2.3 as it is too much work.
    Not meaning to be disrespectful, but lol how is this too much work? I could do it in about 30 minutes
    EDIT: well not changing their appearance obviously, but just putting them in-game haha
    Last edited by Moonflower; February 20, 2011 at 01:02 PM.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by King Kong
    Hey moonflower, just wanted to say that your descriptions are indeed the best, so I will use all of them, of course. Regards

  13. #13
    Dago Red's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Jerusalem; proposals for 2.3 and finishing faction for 3.0

    Yeah I'm not understanding the extreme difficulty of at least enabling recruitment of the Dismounted Knights of Outremer. Personally I'm lost, but it seems to be more of knowing where and how to copy the right instructions into the right EDb or EDU. Others have said they have already "fixed" some of these units. Remodeling them is another things entirely, I didn't want to complicate the issue, but I couldn't resist mentioning it.

    So Moonflower, you know how to "turn on" recruitment for them?


    Quote Originally Posted by Moonflower View Post
    suggestion #1: give them Antioch, reduce starting units
    reason: the KOJ starts out with many expensive units which plummets the faction into serious debt in the first couple of turns, basically paralyzing the faction.

    There are better ways to solve the broken starting position and resources of KoJ. Antioch was a separate principality at this time, and did not swear allegiance to the King of Jerusalem. They didn't even let the KoJ armies march through their territory on some occasions, choosing to leave them as a buffer to ERE or let armenia take them or subdue them is a good choice to have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonflower View Post
    :suggestion #2 new unit, Jerusalem Guardsmen (tier 4)*.


    Totally agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonflower View Post
    :*Restrict all "...of Jerusalem" type units to Jerusalem (i think the hidden_resource label is 'city_jerusalem'), so this should include Knights of Jerusalem, Dismounted Knights of Jerusalem and Jerusalem Guardsmen



    That same suggestion was forthcoming in my outline/revamp of the faction, totally agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonflower View Post

    suggestion #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonflower View Post
    additional available unit--> levy Mediterranean archers (cities only, barracks tier 2)
    reason: to make settlement defense a bit more realistic... crossbowmen apparently can't aim up and over the battlements so it makes them useless in the defense of cities/castles. also, on the battlefield, unless crossbowmen are placed so they are slightly elevated above the heads of units in front of them or are at the head of the army, crossbowmen have the same issue with firing, so this would help the koj have more effective missile units aside from the tier 3 turkopole archers...


    A good idea, though I'd still rather have the vast amount of poor crusaders represented as a bowmen unit, versus locally recruited archers which the KoJ already have. It also plays a role in the unique nature of the KoJ recruitment system begun in BC, that I would love to see fleshed out more. More on that later as promised.

    I also think the unit is fine as skinned, they are drab, are properly attired and the skins of their surcoats and padded gambesons look much better than all the sergeant spearmen/outremer swordsmen who look more like Russian partisans from 1942. Though they could use some simple color retouching to rid them of the vanilla blue.
    Last edited by Dago Red; February 20, 2011 at 03:26 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: The Kingdom of Jerusalem; proposals for 2.3 and finishing faction for 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Dago Red View Post

    So Moonflower, you know how to "turn on" recruitment for them?
    Mhmm. Like you said, it's just a matter of editing the edb, the edu would only need to be changed if the recruit/upkeep price for the dismount knights of outremer were iffy.

    There are better ways to solve the broken starting position and resources of KoJ. Antioch was a separate principality at this time, and did not swear allegiance to the King of Jerusalem.
    Ah, perhaps I should have done my research
    That same suggestion was forthcoming in my outline/revamp of the faction, totally agree.
    I mean... it only makes sense to have units FROM jerusalem be recruited IN jerusalem

    A good idea, though I'd still rather have the vast amount of poor crusaders represented as a bowmen unit, versus locally recruited archers which the KoJ already have.
    Yes, that is what I was trying to get at... I'm not sure I see the differentiation in what you're saying and what I said lol. The current levy archer unit represents the poor crusaders many of which were bowmen, they have low stats, are in expensive, yet somewhat useful.

    I also think the unit is fine as skinned, they are drab, are properly attired and the skins of their surcoats and padded gambesons look much better than all the sergeant spearmen/outremer swordsmen who look more
    like Russian partisans from 1942.
    agreed
    Though they could use some simple color retouching to rid them of the vanilla blue.
    also agreed, i was more speaking of a refinement of detail in their features--if you look close they are quite blurry and obscure.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by King Kong
    Hey moonflower, just wanted to say that your descriptions are indeed the best, so I will use all of them, of course. Regards

  15. #15
    wudang_clown's Avatar Fire Is Inspirational
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Jerusalem; proposals for 2.3 and finishing faction for 3.0

    Entering an unit in the EDB isn't a big deal, but entering it accordingly to predetermined set of recruitment rules is completely different matter. Recruitment in BC consists of few spreadsheets with data and an automated tool which processes the data included in spreadsheets.

    Secondly, features of 2.3 have been already listed, and we are not going to add any new features, simply because we have enough of work with the listed ones. Besides, I can't imagine fixing KoJ units, but not fixing other units, and fixing all would take definitely too much time. I understand that one can enter few lines of code easily if he hasn't got anything more to work on. There is only a question whether that was made correctly.

    One more reason why we won't fix and/or change recruitment in 2.3 is that it is better for us to release changes thematically, as we will be able to easily filter feedback for 2.3 and 2.3.x.

    Reassuming - there will be no more changes to BC in 2.3 apart those listed, and that is out of discussion, whether one likes it or not, sorry.

    If it comes to more units for KoJ then right now I'd say: no. And that's because KoJ has highest number of units in its roster in BC. If it depended only on me, I'd prefer to focus on new factions and underdeveloped factions, than dedicating time for a faction which is in fact a minor one on new (and the old one too) BC map, despite its popularity.

    As for restricting all units with "Jerusalem" in their name to the city of Jerusalem - well, those are units of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, and not from the city of Jerusalem. Requesting such a limitation is like saying that KoJ should be limited to the city only - which is inaccurate, in my opinion. After all, Kingdom of Jerusalem consisted of more towns, villages and castles, not only of Jerusalem.

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  16. #16
    Dago Red's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Jerusalem; proposals for 2.3 and finishing faction for 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by wudang_clown View Post


    Secondly, features of 2.3 have been already listed, and we are not going to add any new features, simply because we have enough of work with the listed ones.


    Totally understandable. I wanted to start with the fixes and also made a couple minor suggestions i thought could be taken under advisement for the near future, before 3.0 but I understand you are well underway with 2.3 already.

    Still, just enabling player recruitment of dismounted knights of Outremer seems the kind of thing that could be included with the batch of "to do" fixes if there is time no? This is not a minor unit, but representative of the entire
    secular warring class of the KoJ nobility. They are also special because they are the KoJ's only mace unit and only desert acclimated unit.

    But certainly we can pool together a sub mod to work on too if the team has hands full with 2.3 Now.... who could i enlist....



    Quote Originally Posted by wudang_clown View Post

    As for restricting all units with "Jerusalem" in their name to the city of Jerusalem - well, those are units of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, and not from the city of Jerusalem.
    Indeed. Let me explain why I agreed with his idea though, it is related to the broader picture of the KoJ recruitment system I have yet to fully portray based on what you already have in BC. But suffice to say that enabling player recruitment of the Knights of Outremer in cities, I thought that restricting the knights of Jerusalem to only Jerusalem should be a good balance, while also upping their strength, making them a banner unit for the faction. Costly, armed and armored to the best KoJ can make and lost if they lost Jerusalem. But available earlier. Not a big deal either way. I'm glad both units are in the game (well, one of them we can't recruit but they are there!)

  17. #17

    Default Re: The Kingdom of Jerusalem; proposals for 2.3 and finishing faction for 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by wudang_clown View Post

    As for restricting all units with "Jerusalem" in their name to the city of Jerusalem - well, those are units of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, and not from the city of Jerusalem. Requesting such a limitation is like saying that KoJ should be limited to the city only - which is inaccurate, in my opinion. After all, Kingdom of Jerusalem consisted of more towns, villages and castles, not only of Jerusalem.
    I disagree with your logic, yet I concede the point. I disagree because it is not to say that other provinces of the kingdom could not field foot knights, garb them with the trappings of the knights of Jerusalem (the city, not the kingdom) and say hey these are knights of Jerusalem too! Of course other provinces could do that. For me, it is more a matter of making the city of Jerusalem crucial for the crusaders to hold--aside from it being part of their victory conditions (which u have over 400 turns to achieve [as long as another faction doesn't beat you to it obviously]) there is no ultra-incentive for the crusaders to keep the city, I've gotten the city to make me around 3k per turn and that is chump change to what antioch can dish out (8k+).

    And if we are going to speak of historical accuracy then if Jerusalem is captured then it would be appropriate that the Kingdom of Jerusalem faction be re-titled as the Kingdom of Acre, as that is historically what happened, and the Knights of Jerusalem and their variations should follow suit, becoming the Knights of Acre, etc.

    Anyhow, this is not really an issue for me as it is easy to add a few characters to a text line to get what i want lol

    KoJ has highest number of units in its roster in BC
    Really? I never got that sense. Perhaps it is because quite a few of the KOJ units are not necessary to the roster. My primary example is the templar brother sergeants (spearmen). sure theyre better than your basic sergeant spearmen by a few points difference in stats but are they really worth their salt as the game progresses? my answer is no, the armoured sergeants surpass them. And how accurate are the latium halberdiers being in the game? I know theyre useful but admittedly they are an eyesore. Also the turcopole horse archers, I never have use for them because they are expensive and their function can be supplemented easily. They really aren't that special, but yes i do see why they were implemented. And though the description for the Norman Knights is cool and what not, i do not understand the concept behind them nor are they a unit that i utilize except in desperation and i need to muster a bunch of units all at once the main reason being that they are insanely expensive.

    Lastly, of course it is unrealistic to expect new units/fixed units for KOJ for the upcoming version but these are things to consider for
    a faction which is in fact a minor one on new (and the old one too) BC map, despite its popularity.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by King Kong
    Hey moonflower, just wanted to say that your descriptions are indeed the best, so I will use all of them, of course. Regards

  18. #18
    wudang_clown's Avatar Fire Is Inspirational
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Jerusalem; proposals for 2.3 and finishing faction for 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonflower View Post
    For me, it is more a matter of making the city of Jerusalem crucial for the crusaders to hold--aside from it being part of their victory conditions (which u have over 400 turns to achieve [as long as another faction doesn't beat you to it obviously]) there is no ultra-incentive for the crusaders to keep the city, I've gotten the city to make me around 3k per turn and that is chump change to what antioch can dish out (8k+).
    Well, now KoJ has 7 regions in possession and in 3.0 it will possess not more than 4 regions, so that should be most basic extra-incentive to defend and keep Jerusalem.

    Apart that - I think that's a matter of house rules of a kind. If you perceive all towns purely as sources of income, and you don't put them into any story, which I think most players create while playing (if only in a process of simplest narrative thinking) - then I would say that it's more a matter of your way of playing. Of course, the way in which the mod is made plays an important role (it provides you great/poor/none occasion to make an additional narration; e.g. in my opinion TATW gives the player perfect condition of narrating player's actions), but ultimately it is always a player who decides how to play, how much he will dedicate himself to campaign etc.

    Sure, limiting knights of Jerusalem to Jerusalem only will add extra incentive, but given that KoJ will have limited AOR anyway - that's not that easy to decide if it's a good idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonflower View Post
    And if we are going to speak of historical accuracy then if Jerusalem is captured then it would be appropriate that the Kingdom of Jerusalem faction be re-titled as the Kingdom of Acre, as that is historically what happened, and the Knights of Jerusalem and their variations should follow suit, becoming the Knights of Acre, etc.
    Well, your expectations exceed M2TW engine, at least as far as I know. You can't change faction's name without engaging a new faction in the process. Since we reached factions limit - there will be no such change of the name. Unless there is an easy way to change it; but I know nothing about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonflower View Post
    Anyhow, this is not really an issue for me as it is easy to add a few characters to a text line to get what i want lol
    Yes, this is easier that restoring missing units, but because recruitment is not addressed in preparations of 2.3, you need to wait for next patch, which should be released within two months after release of 2.3, at latest (rough estimates).
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonflower View Post
    Really? I never got that sense. Perhaps it is because quite a few of the KOJ units are not necessary to the roster.
    Okay, but this way we can discuss each and every unit in the mod, and we will come to the same conclusion - that this or that unit is not necessary in its native roster. This doesn't have anything to do with the fact that KoJ units are most numerous - whether you assess them as necessary or not.

    For some players it would be perfectly enough to have very few units in every roster (say, 5 units plus a dozen of regional). That would close BC unit pool at 120-150 units. In my opinion it would be cool. But the fact is that there have circa 420 entries in BC EDU - whether one likes it or not.
    Last edited by wudang_clown; February 21, 2011 at 03:30 PM. Reason: Corrected few mistakes.

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  19. #19
    Dago Red's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Jerusalem; proposals for 2.3 and finishing faction for 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by wudang_clown View Post

    Well, now KoJ has 7 regions in possession and in 3.0 it will possess not more than 4 regions, so that should be most basic extra-incentive to defend and keep Jerusalem.

    4 regions! Holy Sepulchre Wudang! You're pouring the punishment now... they are already extremely hard to play. Poor Crusaders. I will have to amend my suggestions and overview of the faction now.

  20. #20
    wudang_clown's Avatar Fire Is Inspirational
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Jerusalem; proposals for 2.3 and finishing faction for 3.0

    No need to be worried and no need to adjust suggestions to non-existing product. 3.0 is not released yet, so you can't say whether or not it will be too hard. A slight adjustment of replenishment rates, lower recruitment requirements, more starting capital - and it's not that hard.

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