Assuming there is a God, is God a perfect being? (J.Philp vs. Okmin)

[Okmin]

Topic: As the title says.

Rule:

Not about the existence of God (although I would be perfectly willing to debate that, since I'm atheist). This is about whether or not God is perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, etc. One rule: holy text, by itself, is not proof.

And to clarify that bit about holy text: Quoting the Bible/Torah/Qur'an/etc. would be allowed as along as it isn't used like: "God is omnipotent, it says it right here."

For/Yes: J.Philp
Against/No: Okmin

Commentary thread here.

On to the debate

[Veliky Kaiser Theos]

So who shall state their opening argument? I prefer to rebut then counter argue and so on although if you would like me to start it's fine by me.

[Okmin]

I'll go first then. Very short opening, but religious debates (at least in my experience) mostly consist of refuting.

At the heart of the Semetic religions is a perfect, all-powerful, all-knowing, God (or whichever name they happen to use). Simply put, God could not be any of that.

Perfection means that He couldn't make mistakes. How did he create a flawed world, and along with it flawed people? And then He realized it was all wrong and killed everyone except Noah's family. He could've dealt with the situation many other ways, like not letting anything go wrong in the first place, which is possible if God is omnipotent.

Omnipotence is, simply, impossible. Here's a short logical problem with it (from Averroës (1126-1198)):

Could an omnipotent being create a stone so heavy that even that being could not lift it?

If God is omnipotent, he can create the stone. If He creates the stone and He cannot lift it, then he isn't omnipotent because there is something he can't do. If He can't create a stone he cannot lift, He is not omnipotent because He cannot create it.

The problem of an all-knowing God is much more complicated, and is only a problem if free will exists. So I will be leaving that out of the debate, or else we would be debating the existence of free will.

[Veliky Kaiser Theos]

First, I can't just ignore free will. That is the only possible rationalization for certain aspects of gods behaviour.

Lets take the time to define "perfect"
Oxford dictionary says: "having all the required or desirable elements, qualities or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be". It is quite clear that perfect is subjective and depends on who defines it or regards an element as "good" or "bad". Hence the correct answer to the question depends on who answers it.

Perfection means that He couldn't make mistakes. How did he create a flawed world, and along with it flawed people? And then He realized it was all wrong and killed everyone except Noah's family. He could've dealt with the situation many other ways, like not letting anything go wrong in the first place, which is possible if God is omnipotent.

How is the world being flawed his fault? Sure people are horrid little creatures but that's a necessary part of free will. A perfect world would be very, very boring. Without problems there would be no entertainment. People need problems to solve, and besides, if someone takes a bullet they get to fly up with the sky fairies, assuming that they were (Insert your faith here), otherwise they deserve what they get. Not believing in your creator is like a slap to the face for your parents.

Omnipotence is, simply, impossible. Here's a short logical problem with it (from Averroës (1126-1198)):
Quote:
Could an omnipotent being create a stone so heavy that even that being could not lift it?

If God is omnipotent, he can create the stone. If He creates the stone and He cannot lift it, then he isn't omnipotent because there is something he can't do. If He can't create a stone he cannot lift, He is not omnipotent because He cannot create it.

Why does one have to be omnipotent to be perfect? Perhaps god feels good about being almost omnipotent, and pleasure is perfection to the hedonist.

[Okmin]

First, I can't just ignore free will. That is the only possible rationalization for certain aspects of gods behaviour.

Lets take the time to define "perfect"
Oxford dictionary says: "having all the required or desirable elements, qualities or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be". It is quite clear that perfect is subjective and depends on who defines it or regards an element as "good" or "bad". Hence the correct answer to the question depends on who answers it.

In that case, perfection is impossible, therefore a perfect being is impossible.

How is the world being flawed his fault? Sure people are horrid little creatures but that's a necessary part of free will. A perfect world would be very, very boring. Without problems there would be no entertainment. People need problems to solve, and besides, if someone takes a bullet they get to fly up with the sky fairies, assuming that they were (Insert your faith here), otherwise they deserve what they get. Not believing in your creator is like a slap to the face for your parents.

Well, God created the world, so everything that is wrong with it is His fault, or happened as a result of something else being flawed. Speaking of creating the world, why would God want to do it in the first place? And we know that parents create their children because it is observable. If you can go watch God make the world (and bring a video back), then people would probably start believing it.

Since you brought free will into this, I'll go ahead and talk about the omniscience problem. If God knows everything, free will can't exist. He knows what you have already done, but anyone can know that. He knows what you're doing, but still anyone could know that. He knows what you will do, which is a problem because it contradicts free will. Because God knows exactly what you are going to do, you have no freedom to choose what you do. It might seem like you do, but really there is only one possible outcome.

Why does one have to be omnipotent to be perfect? Perhaps god feels good about being almost omnipotent, and pleasure is perfection to the hedonist.

Omnipotence has nothing to do with perfection. If you go back to the challenge thread:

This is about whether or not God is perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, etc.

[Veliky Kaiser Theos]

Omnipotence has nothing to do with perfection. If you go back to the challenge thread:

I didn't bring up omnipotence, you did.

In that case, perfection is impossible, therefore a perfect being is impossible.:

Perfection is not impossible, If I believe somebody is perfect, they are perfect to me. If I think traits like being ridiculously genocidal and sadistic are good, then they contribute to the perfection of. Perfect is not an objective measure. In the eyes of religions as violent as those the Abrahamic family, god is perfect.

Well, God created the world, so everything that is wrong with it is His fault, or happened as a result of something else being flawed. Speaking of creating the world, why would God want to do it in the first place? And we know that parents create their children because it is observable. If you can go watch God make the world (and bring a video back), then people would probably start believing it.

Since you brought free will into this, I'll go ahead and talk about the omniscience problem. If God knows everything, free will can't exist. He knows what you have already done, but anyone can know that. He knows what you're doing, but still anyone could know that. He knows what you will do, which is a problem because it contradicts free will. Because God knows exactly what you are going to do, you have no freedom to choose what you do. It might seem like you do, but really there is only one possible outcome.:

Agreed. I just wanted to try arguing from the just plain silly (Christian apologetic) view.

[Okmin]

I didn't bring up omnipotence, you did.

Yes, but you asked what omnipotence had to do with perfection.

Perfection is not impossible, If I believe somebody is perfect, they are perfect to me. If I think traits like being ridiculously genocidal and sadistic are good, then they contribute to the perfection of. Perfect is not an objective measure. In the eyes of religions as violent as those the Abrahamic family, god is perfect.

Exactly, so since God is not perfect to everybody, he is partially imperfect, and therefore not perfect because he has some imperfection.

Agreed. I just wanted to try arguing from the just plain silly (Christian apologetic) view.

Next time I'm having this debate with a Christian

[Veliky Kaiser Theos]

Yes, but you asked what omnipotence had to do with perfection.

No, you brought it up in your opening statement.

Omnipotence is, simply, impossible. Here's a short logical problem with it (from Averroës (1126-1198)):
Quote:
Could an omnipotent being create a stone so heavy that even that being could not lift it?

If God is omnipotent, he can create the stone. If He creates the stone and He cannot lift it, then he isn't omnipotent because there is something he can't do. If He can't create a stone he cannot lift, He is not omnipotent because He cannot create it.

Well I guess we can't agree on the other point, as I look at the individual and you average the population.

[Okmin]

True. Call it a draw?

[Veliky Kaiser Theos]

Fine by me

[Okmin]

Then this is over. Can I get a moderator to close it? Thanks