Spqr

[TRSjarmen]

I know most movies are largely historically inacurrate and i was wondering if the tattoo of SPQR on Maximus's arm in "Gladiator" would of really been used and if SPQR would of still been around all the way in 180AD, i would of figured it to die with the senate back in 69BC (i am not sure of this date for the "destruction" of the senate, but i know that is when Octavian became Emperor.)

[removeduser_426582376423734]

I highly doubt anyone would have tattoos in those days. Probably, in Gladiator, the tattoo was to highten the irony that Maximus is betrayed by the Senate.

[John I Tzimisces]

Octavian was at most an infant in 69 BC. Octavian was made emperor in the 30's BC. Even so the senate was never "destroyed". It lasted for centuries afterwards, although its power waned considerably with the establishment of the Empire. Ha, I remember reading a Byzantine emperor threatened his court to remake the republic, since he was fed up with their corruption and ineptitude...

[Osceola]

.....

When the bloody ICEMAN has tattoos on hm, you highly doubt anyone had tattoos in those days?

[Marcus Scaurus]

I'm not sure, but I think that tattoo was still used these days, to catch deserters and traitors more easily. But they only tattoed the soldiers and lower officers, not the patrician tribunes/generals.

[removeduser_426582376423734]

Hm, you learn a new thing every day.

[Goscinio]

and, like my Latin teacher said in my first year, they burned a mark in the forehead of a runaway slave, so you can see he ran away from his master...you can sort of compare that with tattooing somebody

[Marcus Scaurus]

and, like my Latin teacher said in my first year, they burned a mark in the forehead of a runaway slave, so you can see he ran away from his master...you can sort of compare that with tattooing somebody

Huh... how can you burn the forehead of a slave who already fled? Did they do that with NASA lasers, enabling them to burn a slave at distance of thirty miles?

[removeduser_426582376423734]

I think he means the slave fled and was caught.

[Skyhigh]

i dont know why its so incincievable that because there was no more republic that the entire "S.P.Q.R." thing became obsolete
in the Aurealian years i think there was a senate just it was controlled by the emporor and was his vehicle for legislation and other stuff
the roman state was called by spqr for a while, so the soldiers would be tagged as such

[Marcus Scaurus]

i dont know why its so incincievable that because there was no more republic that the entire "S.P.Q.R." thing became obsolete
in the Aurealian years i think there was a senate just it was controlled by the emporor and was his vehicle for legislation and other stuff
the roman state was called by spqr for a while, so the soldiers would be tagged as such

That's not true. The emperor was head of the state, but he wasn't as almighty as the medieval rulers. With the Senate, legions and Praetorian Guards the emperor knew he would be assassinated if he did stupid things and ignored the will of one of the three. Augustus, founder of the Principate, decided to keep the offices, so two consuls were elected each year: he also kept the old Republican titles such as pontifex maximus, imperator and censor. So the Principate was a system build on the fundations of the Republic: it wasn't a simple system with the emperor at it's head and the others down far down below him.

[Mímirswell]

A cursory study of Roman Numismatics helps reveal the importance of the Senate in the Roman Principate.

Here are a list of titles relating to the senate found on coins during the Imperial era:
SPQR OPTIMO PRINCIPI = The Senate, the people of Rome and their highest prince. (throughout the Imperium)
SPQR A. N. F. F. OPTIMO PRINCIPI = as above, wishing the emperor a happy new year. (Hadrian, Antionius Pius, and Alexander)
SENATUS CONSULTO (oft shortened SC) = By decree of the Senate (on all silver coinage, gold was controlled by the Emperor)
S P Q R ADSERTORI LIBERTATIS = The Senate and Roman People, to the defender of liberty (Vespasian Era)
SC OB CIVES SERVATOS = Decree by the Senate for saving the lives of citizens. (Claudius Era)

The senate was far from dead in the centuries following Augustus. It's power fluctuated based on the individual power of the emperor, when he was weak, it was strong, when he was strong, it was weak. Regardless though, the institution did not perish and SPQR endured.

That aside however has no bearing on tatoos (Stigma in latin).

Vegetius describes how recruits receive preliminary training and are then 'inscribed with permanent dots in the flesh' ('victuris in cute punctis scripti'); these dots apparently showed the emblems of the soldier's unit (puncta signorum). A constitution of 398 lays down that 'stigmata, that is, a public mark, must be made on the arms of fabricenses in the manner of recruits, so that in this way they may be recognized if they hide.' Behind this evolution there seem to be two converging tendencies: the ever-growing reliance of the Byzantine state on the upkeep of its armies, and a process of systematic exploitation, whereby soldiers and military workers were marked for life with the insignia of their profession.

Tatooing was prevalent throughout the empire, though almost universally displayed for unit and/or rank. When one was promoted, the old tatoo would be removed and the new rank displayed. They would also tattoo their bodies in order to commemorate important battles or instances in which they showed extreme valor. While the face was a favorite tattoo site, soldiers tended to use their whole body as a canvas. SPQR however had little bearing after the Marius reforms and was likely rare if ever used at all. Soldiers were tied to their general, not to Rome and tatoos were represented accordingly. The sixth century doctor Aetius goes into detail on how the tatoos were performed:

"Stigmates are the marks which are made on the face and other parts of the body. We see such marks on the hands of soldiers. To perform the operation they use ink made according to this formula: Egyptian pine wood (acacia) and especially the bark, one pound; corroded bronze, two ounces; gall, two ounces; vitriol, one ounce. Mix well and sift... First wash the place to be tattooed with leek juice and then prick in the design with pointed needles until blood is drawn. Then rub in the ink."

The process in the west ended in 787 CE, when Pope Hadrian banned its due to its association with superstition, paganism, and the lower classes. This is ironic since early Christians viewed tattoos as displays of faith, since they were recieved for holding steadfast in the face of punishment when they underwent Roman persecution.

As an aside, Octavian was born in 63 BCE and became is generally considered emperor starting in 27 BCE when he gave up all his powers to the Senate in what is called the 'First Settlement'. It was then he recieved the title Augustus and Princeps while still retaining the power of Imperator. Stauracius was the byzantine emperor that threaten to revert the empire back to a Republic.

[Chuffy]

I know most movies are largely historically inacurrate and i was wondering if the tattoo of SPQR on Maximus's arm in "Gladiator" would of really been used and if SPQR would of still been around all the way in 180AD, i would of figured it to die with the senate back in 69BC (i am not sure of this date for the "destruction" of the senate, but i know that is when Octavian became Emperor.)

Rome was the 'Senate' (stop thinking in terms of RTW).

SPQR means 'The Senate and People of Rome', if you were a legionairy you would be fighting for the SPQR. Rome as an Empire would not have been called 'Rome', it was the SPQR.

[conon394]

Mimirswell

Nice too see someone else has come across Jones’ welcome breath of fresh air on the topic of ‘Stigma’.

[TRSjarmen]

if you were a legionairy you would be fighting for the SPQR.

I know that "technically" you would fight for SPQR/Rome/The Senate, but didn't the legions normally owe loyalty to their commanders or the emperor?