BEF destroyed in Battle of France
Lets say that during the Battle of France, the entire BEF was destroyed to the last man, and not a single soldier or piece of equipment, French or British, was evacuated to England, even from the post-Dynamo campaign.
What would the consequences be on the course of WWII?
Protector Domesticus
Re: BEF destroyed in Battle of France
Not much i think the morale of ther Germans was high after they steamrolled France even if a big part of the BEF got away.The only thing would be a blow to the morale of the British but i don't think that could change the course of the war.
Citizen
Re: BEF destroyed in Battle of France
Well they didnt really get any equipment out any way just the soldiers. It wouldn't have affected British air superiority over the British isles or the navy, which would have been the main deterrents to any invasion. Also just killing the BEF wouldn't have stopped Hitler being a tactical moron, he would still have made the same mistakes that led to his defeat in the first place.
Vicarius
Re: BEF destroyed in Battle of France
Given that quite a few top notch officers and most of the trained soldiers available to the UK were present at Dunkuerqe it would have delayed any serious land operation and would have decreased the quality of the leadership. It would probably have made things easier Germany and Italy in North Africa but just how much is open to speculation.
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Re: BEF destroyed in Battle of France
Nothing really serious.
It was the British fleet and air force which ruined the German plans for invasion against Britain.
The British Army was no match for the German one in 1940-1941 whether the BEF was destroyed or not.
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Civitate
Re: BEF destroyed in Battle of France
It may well have had an effect on early British operations in North Africa- in particular Operation Compass. But seeing as Britain failed to build on these early gains as it was I don't know how substantial a difference it would have made.
Another point is it would have deprived Britain early on of experienced NCO's, and this could have had a detrimental effect on earlier British combat operations. Again though, don't know how substantial that would of been.
I think the main effect would have been the incredibly negative effect it would have had on public morale. It was bad enough that France fell and Britain was left on its own, but at least British propaganda manged to turn the evacuation at Dunkirk into a victory and a demonstration of British defiance. Without even that British public morale would have been very low indeed. Not only would Churchill have taken a lot of flak, but we could have potentially seen public demands for a ceasefire. If that happened it would have meant the war was over then and there. The USSR would have faced Germany totally alone and the United States wouldn't have had a base from which to launch operations in Europe, effectively meaning that even if it did want to get involved it couldn't outside of Lend Lease. If that happened the world could have looked very different. We could potentially be looking at the Axis winning the fight against the USSR, or on the other hand we could have seen the majority of Europe fall under the tide of the USSR if they did manage to win (And if they did, it would have been at an even higher cost then it was in reality)
Some food for thought.
Last edited by Azog 150; February 17, 2011 at 03:35 PM.
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Praepositus
Re: BEF destroyed in Battle of France
Generals Alexander, Montgomery, and Viscount Alanbrooke were all among the last to be lifted from the beaches. Without those men, I'd wager the war going very differently.
hoi polloi
Re: BEF destroyed in Battle of France
How do you get there to that point?Lets say that during the Battle of France, the entire BEF was destroyed to the last man, and not a single soldier or piece of equipment, French or British, was evacuated to England, even from the post-Dynamo campaign.
What would the consequences be on the course of WWII?
I mean any what if can be fun but the absolute destruction of the BEF is actually a rather difficult end to what if as I see it.
I don't want to sound deterministic - I think you can say for example what if the a few high pressure and lucky breaks go the other way and Japan comes away from Midway with only one or two CVs lost (and the USN also), on balance I think maybe the evacuation could have be less successful and maybe exacerbated French/UK tension but I don't see a practical way to eliminate the BEF.
Last edited by conon394; February 21, 2011 at 04:49 PM.
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Praepositus
Re: BEF destroyed in Battle of France
The BEF were lucky they were stranded on a sandy beach. That's what saved them.
Civitate
Re: BEF destroyed in Battle of France
A ceasefire is a real possibility. If that occured....
With the manpower saved from garrisoning the Atlantic Wall and Norway, as well as the resources saved from conducting the U-Boat campaign, coupled with the lack of American involvement on any level, we could well see the Soviet Union crippled before it could halt the Wehrmacht. We'd see Nazi Germany perhaps achieve her wargoals.
Ducenarius
Re: BEF destroyed in Battle of France
Originally Posted by Azog 150
Actually Operation Compass likely wouldn't have been affected. None of the surviving troops from the BEF were involved. The main formations of the offensive were the British 7th Armored, the 4th Indian and 6th Australian divisions all of which were in theater before the fall of France. For later operations however you have to remove all the British formations that participated in them after being rescued from France.
It would however affect later operations which made use of formations from the BEF not to mention the force garrisoning the British Isles. Then there's the large hit to moral instead of the boost that Dunkirk became. I think it would have heavily accepted Britons ability to prosecute the war and it's strategy in doing so. Assuming that it didn't lead to a cease fire and subsequent peace.
Re: BEF destroyed in Battle of France
Panzer formations charging onto the beach and killing everyone in sight?
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