PVP Rules

[Remlap]

Ok, lets organize our thoughts here about what we want to change, what should be done to fix it etc. I think the most obvious way is to work from the ground up. So lets start with mining, Should it be legal to harvest another players resources in their mine?

[Makrell]

Yes, i think so.
Mining and denmaking in enemy land shoudl be legal

[Danny_K_1]

Only thing I feel needs changed in this server is that griefing for theft and building access should be legal (outside of battle of course).

[Remlap]

Only thing I feel needs changed in this server is that griefing for theft and building access should be legal (outside of battle of course).

Ok, However I think we should add: as long as all damage is fixed within reason. ie; if someone has a double tile floor it only will return 1 tile therefore the intruder should either leave materials to replace what he broke or bring some along just in case. Which any thief worth their salt would be casing a building before robbing it (and therefore know what to bring). Trying to see if the enemy will lead them to the treasure rooms.

This probably won't happen I know but we should all be friends or at the least cordial to one another in such matters. So I think common courtesy would go a long way as it pertains to theiving, people will already be upset by the discovery of lost goods. No reason to add insult to injury by leaving their home full of holes.

[Poach]

Combat

-Legalise griefing of structures to gain access or bypass defences.
-Retain the offence of griefing for griefing of buildings for the sake of damaging or destroying them.

Result: Griefing is allowed for PvP-related purposes, but structures are protected from random vandalism.

Block Protection

-Crops, reeds and cacti can be looted at will.
-Blocks of Iron, Gold and Diamond can be looted at will.
-Other blocks are protected from theft. As per combat rules, they can be destroyed to gain access to something.

Result: People cannot abuse the griefing rules to protect their valuables, but things such as wool and obsidian cannot be arbitrarily looted.

Construction

-Kingdoms retain ownership of their land and all within it.
-Other Kingdoms may construct within the borders of another Kingdom (but be sensible, no massive keeps) but the Kingdom owning the land may remove or alter the structure at will, in part or in whole.
-Kingdoms building in the land of another must not do so within projects of the home kingdom (eg, I could not build a mini-fort inside Minas Tirith, nor could attackers build an island fort in the Brotherhood Harbour).

Result: Combat positions, staging posts and siege lines are legalised, but are created as temporary structures and thus can be fully griefed by the home Kingdom.

There's my first pass at it. I think it covers everything: drastically loosens up the rules to make combat much more flowing and realistic, while still offering protection from random violence and destruction.

[Katsumoto]

I don't really think griefing through defense should be permitted, unless there is no reasonable alternative. It makes defensive structures totally pointless. Tunneling through walls or forts or whatever is far too easy to be allowed IMO, I'd rather we just make ladder defences illegal. As for building in enemy territory, won't that just result in people placing dirt blocks to overcome defences?

[Makrell]

I dotn think griefing should be legal in combat unless we go all out. Defenses will be useless if i can just breach a wall

[Poach]

Like how walls in RL are useless because they can be breached? I'd be quite happy if you breached the Brotherhood walls tbh, I'd know exactly where to swing my sword when you come through the wall with a pick-axe facing me with a sword.

Instant win for me.

[Katsumoto]

Yeah, but in real life it's far more difficult than a few swings of a pick axe. You can't really compare.

[Poach]

No, but people do this on the server already anyway. This would simply be a change of the official rules to reflect the de facto rules.

[Makrell]

If im attacking the brotherhood alone i think ill be a little more cautios when entering you walls. If im in a group i wouldve breached it stealthily while you were occupied elsewhere.

Do people already do this poach? where and when

[Poach]

The point I'm raising is people seem to think that breachable walls = instant uselessness. This is not the case, as unless you infiltrate by stealth (in which case you can break the rules anyway because no one will see you) the defenders are going to know which part of the wall you're coming through and will be able to wait for you.

The purpose of that rule is not to introduce to warfare the ability to grief walls, the purpose is to force people to be sensible with defences because they know the option to simply bypass them is there.

[Makrell]

The point I'm raising is people seem to think that breachable walls = instant uselessness. This is not the case, as unless you infiltrate by stealth (in which case you can break the rules anyway because no one will see you) the defenders are going to know which part of the wall you're coming through and will be able to wait for you.

The purpose of that rule is not to introduce to warfare the ability to grief walls, the purpose is to force people to be sensible with defences because they know the option to simply bypass them is there.

Wasnt it legal to small griefing outside of battle? or i this proposal no griefing for treasure or anything

[Poach]

It's technically still illegal to do any griefing at all, however:

People regularly grief to reach treasure.
People regularly grief to breach walls when unseen.
People regularly grief to steal blocks (eg, crops).

The rules forbid all three, but no one cares. Even the people in this thread arguing that walls should not be griefable are guilty of at least one of these three, and likely all three.

All I suggest is we bring the rules into line with the reality on the ground, because some people are still hiding behind the rules to force people into running a gauntlet of death traps to get into their stuff. We should simply be allowed to break through walls when presented with defences that are ludicrous.

[Katsumoto]

I'm fine with permitting it when the defences are ridicilous.

[Makrell]

But how to define ridicolous defenses?

[Katsumoto]

Use common sense? I know it's quite lacking in this server, but we can try.

[Poach]

Therein lies the problem. Attackers will say it is if they present even a minor challenge while defenders will say they're fine as long as there's a remote chance at surviving them.

As such, I reckon it's simply easier to legalise it as a whole: going through the walls during an attack is stupid anyway because you're basically saying "I will be in this position armed with a pickaxe in a few seconds", hell I could kill you as soon as you break one block out of the two you need to move through. All it does is make sure that, if the defences are so stupid that the attackers simply won't enter them, they still have a way through.

Look at Pat's castle, for example: getting into that requires you to play Frogger over lava, yet he maintains they're sensible. No one is ever going to bother, so they should be allowed to simply break through his walls.

[Vanoi]

Those rules sound good, but i have a good feeling the rest of the sever will whine about it and those rules will never be implemented

[apple]

Look at Pat's castle, for example: getting into that requires you to play Frogger over lava, yet he maintains they're sensible. No one is ever going to bother, so they should be allowed to simply break through his walls.

Yeah but isn't a castle supposed to scare away intruders?
Shouldn't it be hard and time demanding to steal stuff?
With these rules it's far more lucrative to just steal stuff than making them yourself.
Isn't minecraft about mining and building after all?