Why Bohemia Should be in

[JANOSIK007]

How could CA look over Bohemia?

Why don't they just remove Poland and Hungary while they are at it.

If you look at the statistics you got 11 West European factions (England, Scotland, France, HRE, Spain, Portugal, Milan, Venice, Sicily, Danes, and Papacy) versus 3 East European (Poland, Hungary, and Rus-not Russia, Byzantine would hardly fit into any of these categories).

Having two Rus factions would be nice and appropriate for history.

Lithuania would also be a nice choice, but if (hypothetically) there could be only one spot to change I would go for Bohemia.

Lithuania would be my second choice.

OK, now. Let's consider Bohemia.

Around the time the game begins, Bohemia is already an established kindom. However the title is not hereditary so Przemysl dynasty loses the title, but continues to exist as dukedom with added privileges (freedom from the emperor) (if you think that this somehow makes them any less then consider that officially English kings were vassals to their French counter part, and much like the English, Czechs too fought against their so-called lord). While Przemysls were virtually kings they didn't have the official title until late 12th c. From then on, the Przemysl dynast became one of the greatest in Europe (and one of the longest too-400 years).

Many Bohemian Kings have entered into all-European consciousness in form of myths, lengends, and tales. St. Wenceslaus and OttakarII are among the most famous. In fact, OttakarII was given homage to by Dante who wrote about him in the "Divine Commedy" as one of his greates contemporaries. Ottakar II was dubbed the king of "Gold and Steel" for his many courageos and ambitious deeds. He assembled a crusade into Prussia where he built Konigsberg, the future capital of German Prussia. He also planted the roots of Teutonic (later Prussian) domination of Baltic for the next hundreds of years. He met his end on the field of Durnkrut where a combined army of the HREmperor Frederik and his Hungarian ally have defeated him. This battle is known as the largest one fought among knights (the riders of steel).

However, this didn't signal the end of Bohemian significance. The Przemyslids were still prestigous enough that they be called into Hungary and Poland to rule their country. Shortly after the native Czech dynasty was replaced by Luxembourgs.

Those made Bohemia into an even greater power. Under Karel IV., Prague became HRE's capital and its most advanced city. It became the cultural center of Europre even, as Karel was a great patron of arts and learning. Humanist movement found its shelter in Prague. This later influenced Czech Humanists such as Jan Amos Komensky and Jan Hus. Jan Hus would later play a great role as someone who influenced Luther and Calvin.

In the last stage of Bohemia's significance, the country transformed into an aggregation closely resembling the features of a nation state. Awareness of being a Czech was pushed to the fore by religious and military leaders. Jan Zizka emerged as a briliant tactician who was never defeated by the imperialist armies that always outnumbered him. All Zizka had were untrained peaseant of War Wagons.

Here are some other readings that confirm Bohemia's significance:

"The Kingdom of Bohemia-Moravia continued its independent status within the Holy Roman Empire, and its territory further expanded so that by the end of fourteenth century it had become the leading power in Central Europe [side not from me- this area include everything between Easte Germany to West Ukraine and Lithuania to Greece]. Inittially, the expansive interests of Bohemia's rulers were directed southward, when in 1251, even before he became"

it continues on this link:

http://www.stratcommandcenter.com/fo...e=post&id=2540

and ends here (check out the map, the territory that belonged to Bohemia- from Baltic to Adriatic almost):

http://www.stratcommandcenter.com/fo...e=post&id=2541

[Kscott]

Ok, I cant get into a historical debate with you cause, your knowledge on the subject is much larger than mine, but wasnt Bohemia part of the Holy Roman Empire. I mean yes, they were very indpendent and fought the others often, but this can be said generally of the HRE. IF your going to unite them, I think its best to include them all. Obviously CA agreed.

[lightbringer418]

I agree, it's going to be like Britain in Vanilla RTW. You get to England in the middle of your campaign and Scotland has taken the whole island and wiped out the English...

[Kscott]

I agree, it's going to be like Britain in Vanilla RTW. You get to England in the middle of your campaign and Scotland has taken the whole island and wiped out the English...

?This never happend sieng as Scotland wasnt a faction.....

[bthizle1]

No Srbija, then they certianly shouldn't include a bohemia.

[JANOSIK007]

Here is the one with dates to give you a better picture.

I wrote this piece for the Bohemian faction in C:TW (the medieval mod for Bohemia).

"The story of Bohemia could not be told without acknowledging the Przemyslid dynasty which led this country through times of war and conquest or peace and prosperity. Borivoj I (852-889) was the earliest Przemysl of notable importance. He ruled Bohemia during the late 9th century, while still under the umbrella of Great Moravian Empire. The first assertive and expansive lord to dash out of Bohemia was Boleslav I the Cruel (935-972). He extended Bohemia’s control over Moravia, Lusatia, and Silesia. Since this conquest had been undertaken under the reluctant acquiescence of Holy Roman Emperor Otto I, only Moravia was retained by the Przemyslid dynasty. Though by the end of the 11th century (1085 as granted to him by the Emperor for his brave efforts in the Italian campaign, where Czechs made an terrible impression on the natives- go back to where I talk about facepainted mercenaries) Vrastislav II ruled Bohemia with the title of King, it didn’t become hereditary until 1198, when Otakar I ascended the throne.

The most famous of all the Przemyslids was Ottakar II (1253-127 . He expanded the boarders of Bohemia to the south, incorporating Upper and Lower Austria, Carinthia, Carniola, and Styria. Ottokar II was also a crusader and a builder. He made incursions into the realm of pagan Prussia, where he laid the foundations of Konigsburg and Teutonic Order’s domination of the Baltic Sea for centuries to come. The vigorous heart beat of the king of “Gold and Steel” extinguished on the Durnkrut battlefield, one of the biggest clash of armored ride in medieval history. Once again, the Czech Kings had to cut their losses and limit their realm to Bohemian and Moravian Lands.

When in 1306 Vaclav III died, so did the five century long rule of Przemyslid dynasty. This however didn’t mean the decline of Bohemian Kingdom. Moreover, Bohemia’s Golden Age had yet to come during the enlightened rule of Karel IV (1346-137 . He also became the Roman Emperor and made Prague his seat. During this time Prague became the center of cultural and economic activity of the Holy Roman Empire. Karel IV didn’t shy away from conquest either. He attached Lusatia, Silesia, and Polabia to Bohemian kingdom. However, this empire proved to be short-lived as well and disintegrated with Karel’s death.

A new era dawned in the 15th century, one that would end with Bohemia’s decline as a powerful kingdom. This period was characterized by Hussite Wars. Jan Hus, who was a lecturer on the Karlova University, was an ardent reformer of the corrupt Church practices. For his dissidence he was burned as a heretic in 1415. This sparked a rebellion which carried his name. The most important leader to come out of this rebellion was Jan Zizka. He transformed a rabble of peasants into a lethal professional fighting force. With the help of War Wagons, Hussites were able to repel all the crusades sent by the imperialists. Zigmund, who was the reigning King of Bohemia during the rebellion, was proven right when he stated that the “Bohemians could be overcome only by Bohemians.” The moderate wing of the Hussite rebellion broke off and joined the Catholics and on Cesky Brod battlefield independent and strong Bohemia ceased to exist (it was still virtually independent until the battle on White Mountain, which started off the religious wars of the 17th c.)."

As you see, Bohemia was a kingdom in its own right. Incorporating it into HRE would be a brush off over history. Think of the battles, famous monarchs, unique units that Bohemia could add to make this game more interesting.

Both, the gameplay and history will suffer if Central and Eastern Europe is simply ignored. As far as an average gamer is concerned, I don't think he would like to have such a big portion of the map ignored.

[JANOSIK007]

Ok, I cant get into a historical debate with you cause, your knowledge on the subject is much larger than mine, but wasnt Bohemia part of the Holy Roman Empire. I mean yes, they were very indpendent and fought the others often, but this can be said generally of the HRE. IF your going to unite them, I think its best to include them all. Obviously CA agreed.

Bohemia had a special privilege in HRE above the other german states. Ther were no other Kingdoms within HRE except Bohemia. Such status carried tremendous importance. You rarely hear about some german dukes conquering their neighbors or fighting wars against Poland on their own. Bohemian kings did that regularly. In fact, they successfully attached Silesia and Lustia to their kingdom for a long time and made some shorter advances in Brandemburg Prussia, Poland (couple of its provinces for a longer time and even the entire country for short time), Hungary, Austria, and other southern provinces reaching almost the Adriatic. You just won't encounter any "independent" German dukes and princes accomplishing such feats of conquest.

[Bovril]

If Scotland is in then not including Bohemia is nothing short of rediculous. Those unwashed hibernians had just about as much impact on the international scene as a fart does on a hurricane. Bohemia on the other hand was a centre of cultural ferment and engaged in many of central and South East Europes major power struggles.

[Kscott]

Bohemia had a special privilege in HRE above the other german states. Ther were no other Kingdoms within HRE except Bohemia. Such status carried tremendous importance. You rarely hear about some german dukes conquering their neighbors or fighting wars against Poland on their own. Bohemian kings did that regularly. In fact, they successfully attached Silesia and Lustia to their kingdom for a long time and made some shorter advances in Brandemburg Prussia, Poland (couple of its provinces for a longer time and even the entire country for short time), Hungary, Austria, and other southern provinces reaching almost the Adriatic. You just won't encounter any "independent" German dukes and princes accomplishing such feats of conquest.

Intresting, like I said, you obviously no more about it than myself. Bohemia does sound like a good idea, hopefully we get the 30 factions. If so, Bohemia will be in, eve if we have to mod them in..

[doctor turkey]

khmmm...khmm...for example "year 1500 Bohemia was one of many regions of Poland under the patronage of Jagiellon's Dynasty" (the same Lithuania, Kingdom of Hungary....
so writing the things about removing Poland or Hungary is stupidity...
...

[doctor turkey]

...but i agree with adding Lithuania and Bohemia ofcourse...

[JANOSIK007]

That is what I am saying. It as stupid as removing Poland or Hungary.

BTW, Bohemia was for a short time ruled by Poland (I think what you mentioned) or Hungary (Under Corvin). However the opposite is true as well, when Czech kings did reside over Polish and Hungarian crowns for short ammount of time.

[Sinuhet]

That is what I am saying. It as stupid as removing Poland or Hungary.

BTW, Bohemia was never ruled by Poland or Hungary (you must have read something wrong). However the opposite is true, when Czech kings did reside over Polish and Hungarian crowns for short ammount of time.

Ave JANOSIK007!

I must admit that on the Slovak it is a really nice effort from your side :wink: to include the Bohemia as one of the faction (the official name was The Lands of the Bohemian Crown from the 14th century and it included something around one quarter of the HRE from this time).

We can communicate with "our capitalistic comrades from west" for long hours in debates about the importance of the Bohemia in politics, economy and culture of the Late Medieval Europe and they will not grasp it as we both are. The reason is a bit bad understanding of the thing in both sides, in my opinion.

Historically: Yes, the Bohemia was the key player for everybody in Europe. But its importance was deeply coded in its ambivalent feature of the autonomic kingdom in frame of the HRE. Nothing more and nothing else. The Bohemia without HRE would have only half of its importance in fact. So everything must be seen from this point of view to grasp rightly a power of the Medieval Bohemia. And I am afraid that you are confined too much in a schematic view of the history interpreted from the time of the 19th century by historians as Palacky and so on, which then have its peak in the reverting of the "importance" of the Hussite motion and revolution and too artificial explaining of the Medieval history of our country during communistic period. The truth is somewhere in the middle. So it is not so clear from a historical view to include the Bohemia as one of the factions. It is something dfernt than for example Hungarian Kingdom, Polish Kingdom, Lithuania and the Russian Princedoms.

In every case I thank you very much for this your effort, because to ignore the Bohemia completely as the "west" is doing now. It is also aan error and to large extent a heredity of the German nationalistic historians. The "west people" are till nowday confined in a schema: "good" Germans and the "bad" and uncivilised people from countries on the east from it.

However, I must say that I see mainly several problemes as for he gameplay with the solution which you have suggested - i.e. to have Bohemia in one slot next to the HRE. How to implement the "right" behaviour of the Bohemia toward the HRE and toward its other neighbours (in fact, how to avoid strong mutual fights between Bohemia and HRE and how to grant the personal unions with the Kingdoms of Poland and Hungaria). To implement this would mean for the CA a lot of new task in hardcode and I am in strong doubts that the CA will do it for better and more historical gameplay. They need quick money and not happy "historians".

I would prefer another solution: to create the quite new concept for the whole HRE. Something similar as was implemented for Roman factions in RTW - i.e. the several factions mutually strongly interdependent by means of the hardcode measurements. If you click on wikipedias HRE and you will click on the links such as "districts" or "Golden Bull of 1356 headed by Emperor Charles IV (it is the Karel IV tha Janosik was talking ) you will see some suggestions as for the "dividing" and "relations" of these interdependent factions. This solution would include also other important players such as Burgundia and by its means ther could be posibble to implement in an easy way the inner fights in frames of the HRE via "civil war in RTW" parts of hardcode.

Ohter thing which bothers me is not including Islamic states of Pyrenean pennninsula and nord Africa to MTWII - they and the Byzantia and in the East the pressure of the Mongols were the key factors in the history of the Mediaval Europe.

On the other hand I rather think that the CA will let the things as they are and they will further develop the idle Aztecs idea.

Bye Sinuhet

[JANOSIK007]

I don't agree that there would have to be a special relationship. Bohemian Kings on multiple occassions have ignored imperial will and have gone right against it. In fact there even wasn't a clear Imperial will to listen to. It wasn't hereditary so this proved as a major barrier for conquest and ambition of HRE. To have HRE as an independent state making conquests throught Europe would be even more incorrect than to have Bohemia do it (throughout medieval period lands under Bohemian rule changed but the borders of HRE remained more or less constant).

Ottakar's war against Frederik is an excelent example. Ottakar II amassed an army and came very close to breaking imperial power and the rise of Habsburg.

There are many more historical cases that prove independence of action and grand conquests within and outside of the HRE.

[Sinuhet]

I don't agree that there would have to be a special relationship. Bohemian Kings on multiple occassions have ignored imperial will and have gone right against it. In fact there even wasn't a clear Imperial will to listen to. It wasn't hereditary so this proved as a major barrier for conquest and ambition of HRE. To have HRE as an independent state making conquests throught Europe would be even more incorrect than to have Bohemia do it (throughout medieval period lands under Bohemian rule changed but the borders of HRE remained more or less constant).

Ottakar's war against Frederik is an excelent example. Ottakar II amassed an army and came very close to breaking imperial power and the rise of Habsburg.

There are many more historical cases that prove independence of action and grand conquests within and outside of the HRE.

Ave JANOSIK007!

I am not glad to say this to you but you are only talking about your imagination but it was not the truth. Try to acquire some independent books written in German language before the Nazist (not in Czech) about the history of the Medieval Europe or the HRE and you will se that Bohemia was stronger when and only when the German as a whole was in some relatively infrequent period with decrease trend:

Ottokar the Second - clear time of interregnum in the Empire and then the fight about the power between Frederick of Habsburg and him

Luxembourg dynasty - the 100-years war, the plague started the period of the powerful Charles the Fourth and this is not only coincidence, then several popes, and then total chaos also in the Bohemian kingdom - the so called Hussites wars - this time (14th-1sthalf of the 15th century) was the crisis of the whole Europe in fact.

And I dont need to talk about the chimera of the independence of the Bohemian politics from the HRE ..... Think about only the plain fact that in the time of the 13th century was culmnating the German colonization of inner lands of Bohemia and who was the craftmens and merchants in newly founded cities (west European people, presumably Germans) - they were all loyal to the Empire, not talking about the Bohemian nobility. The opposite was true only in some periods of general unrest in the whole Empire.

Sorry for taking away your illusions.

Bye Sinuhet

[JANOSIK007]

You are not taking away my illusion but adding your own.

Where was the loyalty to germans when the hussite rebellions started. Nobility as well joined the rebellion and repelled much of the German influence on the country.

You suggest to me to read german books before nazis. Well I am sorry. I am not German nor do I know German, nor do I share your pro-German bias.

But here is an excerpt from a book in English written by someone who has no ties to either side.

Read the one posted on the bottom. That is history. Not tales nor superstision.

[smoke]

Though i'm not taking sides on this one, i do feel that most of this 'country x should be in!!!' is mostly motivated by nationalism. I can't get rid of the idea that alot of facts are being interpreted a bit too loosely.

[DEMETRIOUS II]

Who cares dude. So what Bohemia is not in BIIIIG DEAL!! Although all this talk about them has gotten my juices flowing, I hope CA includes them so I can crush, rape, pilage and stomp them to the ground.... muuuhahhhaaaaa

[JANOSIK007]

Not before War Wagons pummel you as@ to the ground

Maybe most of this include x country is motivated by nationalism, but in my case it is impossible as I am not even Czech. I am merely interested in their history.

[hody]

From my point of view, Bohemia should be in. I hate nacionalizm, but Id like to see balance and if possible, historical accuracy. We cannot look over them.