Historic Society; Cao Cao

[Jesus The Inane]

So lets talk about Cao Cao.

-The Battle of Guandu
-How was the killing of Cao Cao' uncle by him perceived by his contemporaries?
-Why is Cao Cao depicted as manipulative and evil when historical records do not support this (this existed long before RoTK)?
-Could Cao Cao have united China even had he won at Red Cliffs?
-Do you think the meritocratic environment flourishing in the decline of the Han dynasty perpetuated the civil war or helped end it? Ergo, was Cao Cao simply unable to succeed (long-term) because he lacked the backing of the powerful families or was the chaos his enabler to the Kingdom he created?
______________________________________

Now I don't really have too much knowledge on Cao Cao, and so I will skip some questions that I can't answer... and perhaps I'll do more listening then talking in this discussion (yet again... ah, lousy education of mine...)

-The Battle of Guandu.

Well, although a great victory for Cao Cao, I think it might have had something to do with Yuan Shao's incompetence as a general. I mean, Yuan Shao had more men...

-Why is Cao Cao depicted as manipulative and evil when historical records do not support this (this existed long before RoTK)?

Perhaps because the propaganda of Cao Cao's enemies?

[Marcus Trajan]

The Battle of Guandu
Yuan Shao lost the battle primarily because of his lack of leadership. He had lots of very good generals and advisors but he didn't know how to utilize them for the best. During the Battle of Guandu there was internal struggle between his advisors and the struggle between his sons and the advisors who sided with one untimately led demise of his realm. Yuan Shao also shouldn't have sent incompetent Liu Bei to Baima. It was a too good to chance to miss for Yuan Shao to defeat Cao Cao, but Liu Bei blew it.
On the contrary Cao Cao knew how to use his men and was mercilessly efficient and effective in manipulating them. He also was wise enough to designate his eldest son as his successor.

How was the killing of Cao Cao' uncle by him perceived by his contemporaries

I'm not sure what you mean by this. When did he kill his uncle?

Why is Cao Cao depicted as manipulative and evil when historical records do not support this (this existed long before RoTK)?
Because Liu Bei was widely depected as ideal Confucianist king, so his opponents were needed to be depicted as villains. Besides, Cao Cao believed in Legalism which was not so popular among Chinese people due to the memory of Qin Dynasty and Shi Huang.

Could Cao Cao have united China even had he won at Red Cliffs?
Very possible although Battle of Red Cliffs(Battle of Chibi) is exaggerated and overated.

Do you think the meritocratic environment flourishing in the decline of the Han dynasty perpetuated the civil war or helped end it? Ergo, was Cao Cao simply unable to succeed (long-term) because he lacked the backing of the powerful families or was the chaos his enabler to the Kingdom he created?
Of course meritocratic environment helped the unstablity of Han further. Everybody started to think that he could be an emperor. I simply think he just ran out of his time before he could unify China. Even though he didn't have as strong family background as Yuan, it worked rather as a stimulant to Cao Cao rather than a detergent. But, he did have quite a powerful clan who were very supportive of him.

[Sétanta]

-Why is Cao Cao depicted as manipulative and evil when historical records do not support this (this existed long before RoTK)?
Because he was a winner. And after some of the truly manipulative, evil Emperors of China who also had incredible success he was seen to be along those same lines. And besides everybody blames the biggest, most powerful, person in the world for all their problems (look at Bush).

thats all i have for now

[Scar Face]

Im afarid, I can't take any part in this one. I don't know anything about cao cao...nor do I care. I don't want to reasearch anybody on Ancient china I ussually just get confused on who there talking about..there names are so long. I'll participate next time. Sorry!

[Marcus Trajan]

-Why is Cao Cao depicted as manipulative and evil when historical records do not support this (this existed long before RoTK)?
Because he was a winner. And after some of the truly manipulative, evil Emperors of China who also had incredible success he was seen to be along those same lines. And besides everybody blames the biggest, most powerful, person in the world for all their problems (look at Bush).

thats all i have for now

I don't get your point. History is written by winners who manipulate it to his advantage. The most blatant precedence is Constantine. Chinese history was written by Chinese not by other countries, so Bush's exampe is not a good one.

[Sétanta]

I don't get your point. History is written by winners who manipulate it to his advantage. The most blatant precedence is Constantine. Chinese history was written by Chinese not by other countries, so Bush's exampe is not a good one.

well Bush is depicted as being evil and manipulative.
and so is cao cao

however history in both cases proves those people who depict those two men in that way are wrong
that those two men are not evil and manipulative
besides manipulation is interpreted differently by different people

[RZZZA]

Who depicts Bush as being evil and manipulative? Point these people out to me, because they need some knowledge dropped on their heads. Bush certainly isnt evil...and hes far too inept of a politician to be manipulative. Comparing Cao Cao to Bush made my head spin to be frank, I dont think Cao Cao compares to Bush in any way, shape or form....

[scottishranger]

As with scar face I know absoulutely nothing about Cao Cao. I havent read anything on acient china in such a long time....Ill participate next time

[Gogoas]

i'd think that if you didn't know anything about a topic, most of the fun was learning something unknown, at least for me, anyways I don't think that cao cao couldn't have won on chibi considering that he just tried to convert his army into a navy, mind you most ppl didn't know how to swim. (I'm allowed to say stuff right? not a historic society exclusive thing right?

[Jesus The Inane]

i'd think that if you didn't know anything about a topic, most of the fun was learning something unknown,

Indeed, that is why we created the Historic Society...like to motivate people...

(I'm allowed to say stuff right? not a historic society exclusive thing right?

Yes, yes indeed.

at least for me, anyways I don't think that cao cao couldn't have won on chibi considering that he just tried to convert his army into a navy, mind you most ppl didn't know how to swim.

Would you be so kind as to give me a link regarding this? Sounds interesting.

I ussually just get confused on who there talking about..there names are so long.

Yes, this is one of the things that hurts my curiosity and motivation when reading about Asian history, it is just really hard to differ from who is who and what is what, you know? It gets pretty confusing.

[Marcus Trajan]

Would you be so kind as to give me a link regarding this? Sounds interesting.

Try this link from Wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Red_Cliffs

[Gogoas]

well i have some books, but i don't have a scanner and my friends have my books :laughing:

[Obi Wan Asterix]

Did Cao Cao succeeed as a statesman any more than a Military Economist?

Was Sima Yi responsible for Cao Cao's economic success, was the success more due to his geopolitical position, or was Cao Cao a good administrator himself?

From main thread. Sorry

[Marcus Trajan]

Did Cao Cao succeeed as a statesman any more than a Military Economist?

Was Sima Yi responsible for Cao Cao's economic success, was the success more due to his geopolitical position, or was Cao Cao a good administrator himself?

From main thread. Sorry

Sima Yi was rather a military advisor and commander than a minister of interior. And, Cao Cao disliked Sima Yi very much, so he wasn't really in a position to advise Cao Cao how to run his kingdom. Cao Cao's son Cao Pi depended on Sima Yi greatly though.

I would say Cao Cao was an able administrator himself. One of Cao Cao's advisor Xun Yu was also a very good administrator. He wrote books about politics and administration but he burned them before he killed himself. (He was forced to kill himself by Cao Cao.)

[Jesus The Inane]

Try this link from Wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Red_Cliffs

Thanks for the link. Quite amazing how such a mistake cost the lives of so many soldiers.

[Ecclesiastes]

The Battle of Guandu

In the spring of 200, Yuan Shao, the most powerful warlord of that time, amassed more than 100,000 troops and marched from Ye on Xuchang. To defend against the invasion, Cao Cao placed 20,000 men at Guandu (官), a strategic landing point on the shore of the Yellow River which Yuan Shao's troops had to secure en route Xuchang.

With a few diversionary tactics, Cao Cao managed to disorient Yuan Shao's troops as well as kill two of Yuan Shao's most capable generals, Yan Liang and Wen Chou. The morale of Yuan Shao's troops suffered a further blow when Cao Cao launced a stealth attack on the former's food store. Many more of Yuan Shao's men surrendered or deserted than were killed during the ensuing battle. When Yuan Shao eventually retreated back to Ye in the winter of 201, he did so with little more than 800 horsemen.

The Battle of Guandu shifted the balance of power in northern China. Yuan Shao died shortly after his return and his two sons were soon defeated by Cao Cao. Henceforth, Cao Cao's dominance in the entirety of northern China was never seriously challenged. The battle has also been studied by military strategists ever since as a classic example of winning against an enemy with far superior numbers.

Simply brilliant.

How was the killing of Cao Cao' uncle by him perceived by his contemporaries?
They weren't happy about it.

Why is Cao Cao depicted as manipulative and evil when historical records do not support this (this existed long before RoTK)?
History is written by the victors which Cao Cao wasn't one of.

Could Cao Cao have united China even had he won at Red Cliffs?
That depends on how he had won Red Cliffs.

Do you think the meritocratic environment flourishing in the decline of the Han dynasty perpetuated the civil war or helped end it? Ergo, was Cao Cao simply unable to succeed (long-term) because he lacked the backing of the powerful families or was the chaos his enabler to the Kingdom he created?
Perpetuated, he became to confident.

Did Cao Cao succeeed as a statesman any more than a Military Economist?
I think those two were in balans.


I cannot but wonder why Cao Cao was in such a rush to conquer the south. He marched with to many men who were ill-suited and preparations were certainly not taken good care of. Did he not see after the battle of Guandu that it is not the one with the most men that wins but the one with the best troops and tactics. If anybody has more information concerning his desicion to conquer the south then please share. Before that desicion he seemed like a more then able general so I can't see why he made such an error.

Though the Tortoise Lives Long

Though the tortoise blessed with magic powers lives long,
Its days have their allotted span;

Though winged serpents ride high on the mist,
They turn to dust and ashes at the last;

An old war-horse may be stabled,
Yet still it longs to gallop a thousand li;

And a noble-hearted man though advanced in years
Never abandons his proud aspirations.

Man's span of life, whether long or short,
Depends not on Heaven alone;

One who eats well and keeps cheerful
Can live to a great old age.

And so, with joy in my heart,
I hum this song.

[Marcus Trajan]

[Why is Cao Cao depicted as manipulative and evil when historical records do not support this (this existed long before RoTK)?
History is written by the victors which Cao Cao wasn't one of.

You're right. Sima clan was the ultimate victor. However, you can argue that then why history depicts Liu Bei so good even though he was a ultimate loser.

I cannot but wonder why Cao Cao was in such a rush to conquer the south. He marched with to many men who were ill-suited and preparations were certainly not taken good care of. Did he not see after the battle of Guandu that it is not the one with the most men that wins but the one with the best troops and tactics. If anybody has more information concerning his desicion to conquer the south then please share. Before that desicion he seemed like a more then able general so I can't see why he made such an error.

I believe it was because he was blinded by the fact that he finally grasped once in a life-time chance to unify China and indeed it was so close. However, Cao Cao was not familiar with the geography and weather pattern of the Shibi area and it was a critical factor of his defeat.

Nonetheless, I believe Battle of Red Cliffs was a minor setback to Cao Cao. The more important factor was Cao Cao lost control of Jing province aftermath of the battle. Jing province was strategically very important to any of the three kingdoms and Cao Ren blew it.

[Ecclesiastes]

You're right. Sima clan was the ultimate victor. However, you can argue that then why history depicts Liu Bei so good even though he was a ultimate loser.

Then I guess the reasons were, as you stated earlier, because Cao Cao had other "beliefs" and was perhaps ahead of his time... perhaps he was looked upon cruel because he killed his own uncle...

I believe it was because he was blinded by the fact that he finally grasped once in a life-time chance to unify China and indeed it was so close. However, Cao Cao was not familiar with the geography and weather pattern of the Shibi area and it was a critical factor of his defeat.

You stated earlier that Red Cliffs was overrated but here you say Red Cliffs was his once in a life-time chance to unify China (or did you meant Red Cliffs was only the beginning of that chance... if so then it is still important because without a beginning there can be no end).

Makes you wonder why he was a more then able general before Red Cliffs and all of a sudden lost all his talents and went to battle blindfolded. Perhaps he became to confident like most generals would after a series of victories...

Nonetheless, I believe Battle of Red Cliffs was a minor setback to Cao Cao. The more important factor was Cao Cao lost control of Jing province aftermath of the battle. Jing province was strategically very important to any of the three kingdoms and Cao Ren blew it.

Did he lose the Jing province because he had lost at Red Cliffs. If so then I think Red Cliffs is very important. he lost a lot of men there and therefor could not defend that province. Or were there other reason for that lose?...

[Marcus Trajan]

perhaps he was looked upon cruel because he killed his own uncle...

Can you elaborate? When did he kill his uncle?

You stated earlier that Red Cliffs was overrated but here you say Red Cliffs was his once in a life-time chance to unify China (or did you meant Red Cliffs was only the beginning of that chance... if so then it is still important because without a beginning there can be no end).

What I meant is that at least Cao Cao believed so, and I'm not denying that it was indeed a good chance for him to unify China. However, it was not so great defeat as depicted in history or novel.

Makes you wonder why he was a more then able general before Red Cliffs and all of a sudden lost all his talents and went to battle blindfolded. Perhaps he became to confident like most generals would after a series of victories...

I believe it certainly was a contributing factor to his defeat. He was overconfident and underestimated his oppponents.

Did he lose the Jing province because he had lost at Red Cliffs. If so then I think Red Cliffs is very important. he lost a lot of men there and therefor could not defend that province. Or were there other reason for that lose?...

His lost at Red Cliffs was a critical factor of the loss of Jing Province. But, the more important factor was misjudgement of Cao Ren and Xu Huang.

[Obi Wan Asterix]

Can you elaborate? When did he kill his uncle?

"I will betray the world rather than let the world betray me" was the phrase that Cao Cao stated after killing his uncle Lu Boshe. In the most perilous of times prior to his takeover of Luoyang, Cao Cao and his retainer took shelter in the old man's house. The old man invited them and said he would go to fetch some food. He did not come back quickly and Cao Cao became suspicisous and waited for him behind the door. When Lu Boshe came back he stabbed him in the back and stated the famous phrase above.