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Thread: The problem with existence, death and non-existence from the material monists (most atheists) point of view.

  1. #1

    Default The problem with existence, death and non-existence from the material monists (most atheists) point of view.

    Ok this going to be very difficult to explain but I will try and break it down into sections so you can understand where I coming from, though I'm not sure if I understand this myself. I may have just got the wrong end of the stick in relation to something that is very simple to understand so bear with me.

    1) The universe (our universe as we know it to exist) didn't always exist so it had a beginning with the big bang.
    With the big bang time as we know it began, time moves forward in this direction, past ----> future

    2) After 13.75 billion years the first known (though very likely not literally the first) fully self aware life evolves in the universe, this being mankind. Many other animals will also be aware to some degree as well of course though not to our level as they have much smaller brains. So conscious awareness is firmly linked to the physical brain.

    3) Any one individual fully sentient being has a finite existence within the time flow of the universe in that there was a time that existed before they existed, the universe as we know it is finite in much the same way though time only came into existence with the universe itself. However they only joined with the flow of time once their brain was developed enough to enable general awareness, at first this awareness will have equivalent to that of a tadpole, but this still counts. This awareness develops into greater complexity through development in the womb, after birth and from infancy into full sized brain adulthood. With this greater awareness we can experience the flow of time, remember the past, experience the present and plan for the future.

    4) There must have some exact instant of time when an individual sentient mind will come into existence from non-existence. The mind itself was created from something else that had physically existed before. For instance all life on Earth could in theory be traced back to one living cell, that living living cell was created by some naturally occuring physical process and so on until you go back to the naturally occurring original cause of everything that exists. But we're getting off topic here.

    5) The sentient mind though a product of the physical body is also a product of something which is not in itself physical, this being the flow of time as without the flow of time no conscious brain activity or thought can take place.

    6) So we have a situation here where we are flowing forward through time from a point in the past to a point in the future, though from our point of view it will always be the present regardless of the time we find ourselves to be within. For instance here is my past (and present) self *waves* and now I'm flowing forward in time (while staying in the present) along with the rest of the universe *whoosh* ----------> and here I am in the future (present) as my future (present) self *waves*. So what I have done here is flowed forward from my past self into my future self and this was a forward motion I could in some way consciously perceive taking place despite the fact that it was always seemed like the present. If I could not experience this forward flow of time my consicious mind could not exist, at least not in any coherent form that would make any sense to us.

    7) So far so good, but assuming the sentient mind is entirely dependent on both the physical brain and time in order to exist (and there is no such thing as a soul ) we hit a slight snag in the process. The problem is we can't of course travel forwards forever as there will come a point when all physical functions cease through the process of dying and becoming dead. On death not only will your sentient mind cease to exist you will also stop travelling forward through time and experiencing the future time as the present.

    8) Ok so getting to the main meat of the problem here, run the example of myself flowing forward in time as before but assume my future self instead of being alive in the future is in fact dead, and this will of course happen at some point in future, so watch this.

    Past (present) self *waves* and now I'm going to move forward in time with the rest of the universe (while staying in the present) like this *whoosh* ----------] *BANG!* as you can see I've hit a brick wall as there is no future (present) self for me to flow into, which you could confirm by proding my unmoving stone cold body with a stick at this point in your present which is my post death future and non-present. However I would still be experiencing everything up to the moment I snuffed it as the present time while moving constantly forward into the future non-stop. But if you look my past self is still back there in what my past self thinks is the present but my past self hasn't and would not be able to move forwards into my future post death time period. The post death period for me is the present living time for you and everyone else who aren't dead yet and the people who will be born at some point in the future after I and everyone else in the world alive right now will be also dead.

    9) So can you see the problem with this? Or am I seeing a problem where there really is no problem at all?
    The wheel is spinning, but the hamster is dead.

  2. #2
    Adrian's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: The problem with existence, death and non-existence from the material monists (most atheists) point of view.

    Time is different depending on where you are and what at what speed you are moving.

    But you are still in the universe and as such you will affected by it you can't physically be out of spacetime, you can only experience variations of it.

    And what I mean by you is your body, since your mind is dead as you said.


    What you talking about is your perception of time, and you are right by your perception and mine we always live in the present. we can't experience the future until it becomes the present in our own variation of time.

    But I don't see the problem since you by you I mind the self aware you your mind can't exist without a body and as such I would not be possibille to experience a future or present from my perspective when my mind is dead.

    And there is no past self outside from our memories and outside observers, I lived this second now in this variation of time its gone and I can never revisit it physically.

    In theory tough if you get close to the speed of light you suffer from time dilatation and as such in your frame of reference time moves normally but from an outside observer it moves slower in your frame of reference, so in theory I could end up living 30 years in my variation of time and when I stop 800 years have passed in your variation thus I didn't have to deal with my future self dying in your variation until I returned to it again, so you avoid dying for a long time in the variation you returned to but you'll still die in any variation at one point and the "future" and present will end for you.
    .........


  3. #3

    Default Re: The problem with existence, death and non-existence from the material monists (most atheists) point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian View Post
    I would not be possibille to experience a future or present from my perspective when my mind is dead.
    But you can only ever experience the present, what happens when your present no longer extends into the future?
    The wheel is spinning, but the hamster is dead.

  4. #4

    Default Re: The problem with existence, death and non-existence from the material monists (most atheists) point of view.

    I'm a little confused. Why does the past self continue to exist perpetually after death experiencing it's own present? In my opinion when "your present" hits that metaphorical brick wall, that's it. There is no past self to also hit the wall. From the deceased's perspective, existence is no more. As Adrian said, once that past self has visited that moment, the moment shall never occur again.

  5. #5

    Default Re: The problem with existence, death and non-existence from the material monists (most atheists) point of view.

    to op

    You presume there is something that is ‘existence’ or reality, it may be that the universe is a hologram projected from an information matrix. You watch a 3D film but it is really 2D, your eyes see a black and white 2D image which the mind & brain converts to what appears to be a 3d image.

    Now consider the truth that information doesn’t exist, it is not physically there, all manner of qualia don’t exist also, so that means colour and the equivalent qualia of all the sense ~ your entire ‘actual’ experience of the world, is not real or at lest doesn’t exist!

    Clearly the mind as it works with qualia and not the physical input directly [is subjective] is not physical, so death is the removal of that physical input which is secondary to your experience of reality. You are then left with everything you are as you experience it, but can no longer read information derived from the physical world [which probably doesn’t exist]. That is then in a ‘world’ of similar entities and that world itself is of the same ilk.

    The mind is contained in itself and that is the body [soul] of mind, ~ as we have to define somehow what the entity and space of mind then is. All entities and locations are transferable [my ontological principle of infinite transmigration], the entire universe is this occurring ~ it is a set of changing relationships within an informational matrix which itself is not a thing as it changes all the time. Time itself or our perception of linear time is simply those changing relationships, when there are no such changes then time does not exist, that’s it. …I doubt if that can situation can occur or we would be left in an anti-causal void where history actually didn’t happen, hence I expect that time has and always will exist in some manner and one kind of time is eternal.


    The druids mind hierarchy
    Out of 10
    1. Fundamental universal consiousness, ceugant, Buddha being etc.
    2. Base level thinking that even the most rudimentary creatures/vegetation have [germs etc].


    6. The human intellect.
    7. Brilliant intellectuals.
    8. Genius level thinking.
    9. ‘god’ or the inability of reality to describe itself. …reality cannot be defined as infinite nor finite nor purely of info etc. …literally it is always liminal.
    10. The universal matrix. If you can think this you can change reality. The 'weathermen' and transmigrators etc.
    Last edited by Amorphos; February 06, 2011 at 10:34 AM.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The problem with existence, death and non-existence from the material monists (most atheists) point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzalcoatl View Post
    *snip*
    All that is possible but in this thread we're assuming we're a byproduct formed from a collection of atoms working together to form the physical body and when these atoms cease to function as one and go their separate ways we will fade into literally nothing. This is the popular belief for atheists becauses it seem fairly straightforward and scientifically simple, at least before you really into what that would mean from the individuals perspective. The main issue I have with the concept I've tried to explain as best I can though it's not an easy thing to explain.
    Last edited by Helm; February 06, 2011 at 10:38 AM.
    The wheel is spinning, but the hamster is dead.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The problem with existence, death and non-existence from the material monists (most atheists) point of view.

    I see, well if we consider it so that we are a collection of atoms and our thought electricity, then that atoms don’t go by QM or holographic theories, then I suppose yea sure they stop working as a cohesive machine and decompose. That is the end of the organic robot no doubt.

    I presume history does exist somehow so everything that happens shall remain, but what that actually means is quite another thing.

    Really we have to come down to the most basic materialist arguments to think like that. Frankly that’s just ridiculous, we should at least be absolutely sure that materialism isn’t the complete answer.

    Remember, I was brought up in an atheist household and thence I don’t have a problem with it, I simply find it lacking just as all religions are at best that.

    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  8. #8

    Default Re: The problem with existence, death and non-existence from the material monists (most atheists) point of view.

    "Death does not concern us, because as long as we exist, death is not here. And when it does come, we no longer exist."

    You would think that wraps everything up in a neat little package, but I can see some kind of problem with the idea. Not easy though it is to try and explain it in a way that makes sense because it doesn't make a lot of sense. Not that most of the alternatives make much sense either, but I think it would help if we had a better understanding of time and our place within it. One thing for certain death will remove any individual from the general flow of time, they will part company at that point.
    Last edited by Helm; February 06, 2011 at 12:43 PM.
    The wheel is spinning, but the hamster is dead.

  9. #9

    Default Re: The problem with existence, death and non-existence from the material monists (most atheists) point of view.

    we still exist in all-time bla bla
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  10. #10

    Default Re: The problem with existence, death and non-existence from the material monists (most atheists) point of view.

    I suppose the concept of before and after time wouldn't be be relevant at all, you can apply an individuals own sense of time to time within the universe in general, they may be linked but they're not quite the same thing. Time would begin when you begin and end when you end from your own point of view, if there is no such thing as a soul floating around somewhere. Time in general began with the universe and would end with the universe, again no before or after.
    The wheel is spinning, but the hamster is dead.

  11. #11

    Default Re: The problem with existence, death and non-existence from the material monists (most atheists) point of view.

    I dont think time exists, Past , future and present are just human concepts. I think it's alot more complex and we dont fully understand it yet.

  12. #12

    Default Re: The problem with existence, death and non-existence from the material monists (most atheists) point of view.

    Time does exist mathematically though it may not exist the way we perceive it.
    The wheel is spinning, but the hamster is dead.

  13. #13

    Default Re: The problem with existence, death and non-existence from the material monists (most atheists) point of view.

    Have a read of this http://www.robsworld.org/notime.html

    I dont believe the theory but i think in the future our understanding of what time is will be just as complex if not more so

  14. #14

    Default Re: The problem with existence, death and non-existence from the material monists (most atheists) point of view.

    There's certanly something seriously missing from the picture, I don't think whatever is missing is supernatural but I still have my doubts in regard to pure materialism.
    The wheel is spinning, but the hamster is dead.

  15. #15

    Default Re: The problem with existence, death and non-existence from the material monists (most atheists) point of view.

    If time didn't exist then conservation of energy would break down and everything just becomes inherently ridiculous.

    Yeah, I think it probably does...

  16. #16

    Default Re: The problem with existence, death and non-existence from the material monists (most atheists) point of view.

    What we experience as time may not be what time actually is.
    The wheel is spinning, but the hamster is dead.

  17. #17

    Default Re: The problem with existence, death and non-existence from the material monists (most atheists) point of view.

    You don't "experience" dimensions. You exist within the confines of them.

  18. #18

    Default Re: The problem with existence, death and non-existence from the material monists (most atheists) point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack04 View Post
    You don't "experience" dimensions. You exist within the confines of them.
    You can experience the dimensions you're confined within a certain way, depending on how your mind perieves them. For instance we experience a certain frequency of radiation as light and colour but light and colour only exists because we perceive it that way. The same kind of thing could be happening in relation to time, there's the objective reality and there's the way we experience it.
    The wheel is spinning, but the hamster is dead.

  19. #19

    Default Re: The problem with existence, death and non-existence from the material monists (most atheists) point of view.

    How does one interact with dimensions without contents (so basically flat space-time)?
    Last edited by Jack04; February 08, 2011 at 01:40 PM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: The problem with existence, death and non-existence from the material monists (most atheists) point of view.

    There's certanly something seriously missing from the picture, I don't think whatever is missing is supernatural but I still have my doubts in regard to pure materialism.
    The material is transferable with the immaterial, thought informations with mechanistic physical information. We don’t need to look for gods and spirits for the answer, the truth is not something else other that we know we already have.

    “the answer lies behind your eyes, its not that far” - lena lovich [from the most excellent ‘flex’ album available on I-tunes]. srsly one of the best atheist/mystic albums ever [for us wierdo's anyhoo].
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

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