Hyrule: Total War - Link to Subforums in First Post

[Opus]

@PaulH You have not read my post about how the Yooks are the Frostare's servants.

When the time explosion happened the Hylians thought them monsters and decreed that they had no place in their kingdom. They drove out the Yooks into the north. They could not follow them into the wastes so the Yooks survived. The Yooks went deep into the realm of frostare who had his minions lead them to his temple. He promised them that if they serve he would kill the Hylian race and turn all the world into a snowstorm fit only for their kind to survive in. They now are some of his most trusted soldier albeit his most hungry ones.

I tried to make it plane that they only serve the Frostare, and are not masters by them selves. The 'gaining your foes powers for conquering their land' idea still makes no sense makes to me. Why would the chilfos need fairy land to get magical versions? It makes them seem just ice versions of other factions than a real race of themselves.

[PaulH]

This is starting to get rather frustrating, it is feeling like I am preaching to old people with their hearing aids off. I will try to explain again.

I like the idea of the Yooks enslaving the anouki, but I personally would stick with Frostare being the creator of the Chilfos. I would have the anouki as slave labor, but only to build the fortresses and such. As for the question of leadership, I believe the Yooks would be capable of leading the Chilfos, but in a disorganized "rush now, think later" manner. (In essence they would have a moblin-like attitude.) As for them conquering different opponets to gain different unit types, I believe that could work especially considering the idea I am about to propose. I think that the Ice Faction should have a cordial relationship with the Gohma faction, as both of them would seem to have a "manifest destiny" idea. (conquer and consume) I haven't decided which faction should be their rival yet, but since it has been suggested that they start in the south, Queen Ambi might have some unexpected visitors soon.

What I meant was that the Yooks would be enslaving the Anouki but not in the Chilfos Faction, but in a separate one entirely. Also I do think that the Gohma and Chilfos would be rival factions instead of cordial ones, due to both of them wishing to conquer and consume but in different ways, that and I expect most Gohma would struggle in the frozen wastes left behind by Chilfos.

Yeah, something's off with that. I'd understand if the prerequisite was to defeat another faction in order to copy them, Megaman style, but it doesn't seem something that should be tied to territory. That and ultimately, it's just a differently shaped being of ice. It's not going to be impervious to lava just because it's shaped like a Goron (or have stronger magic because it has wings of ice).

What is the point of adapting to being able to fight something after you have finished defeating it? The point of it was that by say.. conquering one of the Goron held territories, they could then access a unit which would make fighting the Gorons -easier- than before, because they have a unit which is adapted to fighting them. And really, how hard is it for people to accept that Ice can form in different ways? Under different pressures Ice can have different strengths and properties. Or, if we want.. let us remember that we are working on a mod set in a fantasy world that was created by 3 Goddesses, who left 3 golden Triangles behind that grant wishes... if you can get your head around that, then it really is not difficult to understand that Ice can take on different properties or exist in places it shouldn't. A prime example is the Zora realm in Ocarina of Time, it was utterly frozen solid by Ganondorf, who is a desert sorceror. C'mon people, use some imagination.

That and, as I said above, I'm not too persuaded by the notion of adaptive chillfos. I get it that they are made of ice and therefore can be shaped in any ways... but why would this give them additional powers?

Why would it not give them additional powers? They are creatures made from magic, therefore changes to the methods of the spell will produce different results. Also, the entire nature of adaption is to change to gain "powers" over an obstacle, it's how nature works and I would expect that if magic was real it would be adaptive too. Both in methods used and the results of it.

It's not that we don't get it Paul... we just like it better with Yooks thrown in the mix for added diversity, especially in the starting phases.

Really, I'm mainly interested in this faction because it can have Yooks in it. They can't have a faction of their own and I don't think it's any different for the chillfos. Both only appeared in one game and the chillfos were just one very ordinary enemy. Sure they're cool (no pun intended) but that's about it.
On the other hand, the Yooks were clearly shown to have a civilization of their own (albeit barbaric). I'd love for them to be properly rpresented in this game, but they canìt be on their own, they just don't have enough going for them. Paired with the Chillfos, Frostare and other ice based creatures (like Freezard) however, they can make for a great faction.

The Yooks lived on a single island in the World of the Ocean King which is not linked to Hyrule at all like Snowpeak is and Snowpeak is the region that the ice faction would be based on the campaign map shown by Neph, the faction ideas I posed had the; World of the Ocean King, Hyrule-below-the-Waves and an alternate version of Hyrule being thrust into the map but down in the south and not part of the main continent. The Yooks appeared once on an island not of the same world as the main setting, and if my idea of these worlds colliding with the main one was to be used then surely they would only appear down in the south on the archipelago. Not only that but Yook civilisation is barely existent, they lived on an ice field and had to steal from the Anouki to get hold of anything, they were bullies and extremely unintelligent. I know you love them, and I like them too, but I feel they only suit as neutrals or mercenaries and not as part of the Chilfos. At most, I could see them with the Chilfos if they manage to conquer Ocean King territories, but even then I feel they wouldn't work.

I tried to make it plane that they only serve the Frostare, and are not masters by them selves. The 'gaining your foes powers for conquering their land' idea still makes no sense makes to me. Why would the chilfos need fairy land to get magical versions? It makes them seem just ice versions of other factions than a real race of themselves.

I am perfectly happy for Frostare and the larvae ruling and guiding the Chilfos. It is really not hard to understand the idea I had. *You are -not- gaining your foes powers by conquering their land, you are gaining access to new units which embody the strengths of the faction you are currently invading. People really need to use their brains a little, as I have -NEVER- said that the Chilfos would make copied versions of other races.

We won't see Ice Gohma's, Ice Gorons or Ice Wizzrobes. But you would instead see units that embody the strengths of those units. For a quick few examples:

If the Chilfos conquer a Gohma owned territory, or a territory where Gohma thrive (you could represent populations through the use of Hidden Resources I believe), then the Chilfos would not get a Gohma shaped ice cube, but instead something that represents what they are. The Gohma strength lies in absolutely massive forces that are swift... what unit would the Chilfos get? I do not know, but a Mini-freezard makes sense due to their size, speed and complete lack of rarity in the games. You could have a giant swarm of Mini-Freezards as the unit gained by claiming territory owned by the Gohma, weak in power and health but their overwhelming numbers will win the day.

Or in the case of conquering a Wizzrobe territory, it does not mean that they will gain pretty little owls made of snow, but instead a unit which represents the Wizzrobe strengths aka Magic. This could take numerous forms, anything from a Chilfos which acts like a Glaciomancer to a monstrous ice snake that vomits raining shards of ice across huge distances. Or the Gorons whose strengths lay in very powerful units and siege weapons, you could get a monster that is classed as a siege weapon as your unit gained from war, or perhaps just a large Chilfos who is made of sterner ice (or even an ice/rock combo) that can take more punches and deal them back out.

The idea behind these is that the Chilfos gain new units in order to adapt to match the strengths of their foes, they follow that old saying "fight fire with fire", but do it in a far cooler way (har har har, cool puns). This means that as they conquer and adapt to new foes (remember, adaption is a key aspect of all aspects of life, even war adapts), they become stronger.. but on the same vein, they grow weaker if they begin to be conquered.

If we ran with a Frost faction consisting of Chilfos, Yeti's, Yooks, Frostare and Anouki.. we would be creating a faction which plays out like many standard Total War factions. The criticisms I gained with my new faction ideas or my extra unit ideas were partially over the fact that people said that it would create more generic factions rather than something which plays out differently. My Chilfos would play out in a way totally unique to this mod.

I'm giving up on further responses over this Chilfos stuff. We have gone off of track again, moving onto the realms of campaign maps and faction ideas instead of trying to route out bugs and imbalances of the current release. We should be moving back to that.

[Lordbuxton]

Some words on the Wizzrobes.
1) AI can't use the faction, their units go into skirmish mode and retreat constantly, unable to fire of a single spell. I suggest coding them as missile cavalry then allow them all to float (they can fire while retreating/moving) , however if this was done it would be essential to reduce their numbers and increase their cost so they're not overpowered.


2) Unit costs don't seem to correspond to their strengths, water mages cost the same as pyromancers and elctromancers.

3) Will they be hireable as mercenaries for some of the other factions?

[Eleos]

This is starting to get rather frustrating, it is feeling like I am preaching to old people with their hearing aids off. I will try to explain again...

...let us remember that we are working on a mod set in a fantasy world that was created by 3 Goddesses, who left 3 golden Triangles behind that grant wishes... if you can get your head around that, then it really is not difficult to understand that Ice can take on different properties or exist in places it shouldn't. A prime example is the Zora realm in Ocarina of Time, it was utterly frozen solid by Ganondorf, who is a desert sorceror. C'mon people, use some imagination...

...If we ran with a Frost faction consisting of Chilfos, Yeti's, Yooks, Frostare and Anouki.. we would be creating a faction which plays out like many standard Total War factions. The criticisms I gained with my new faction ideas or my extra unit ideas were partially over the fact that people said that it would create more generic factions rather than something which plays out differently. My Chilfos would play out in a way totally unique to this mod.

My problem with this idea is that it is expanding a single enemy from a single game from a single location into a full fledged civilization. If these enemies had been seen in multiple games across multiple timelines (such as Stalfos) I would not have a problem with their inclusion and being expanded upon. No Chilfos have ever been identified in any form other than the one encountered in a cursed mansion on Snowpeak. Tweaking their appearance would be no problem for, perhaps, one advanced unit but making them into an entire faction is problematic lore wise.

I understand you are presenting this idea with the concept of unique gameplay, but I feel that this unique gameplay comes at the expense of lore.

I cannot speak directly for them, but from my interpretation of Duke's and Opus' posts indicates they are trying to flesh out the faction with units found within the games. This is a lore friendly way to solve the issues mentioned above. Yes, this would probably be leading to the Ice faction playing out similarly to other factions, but we have moved beyond your notion of how they should appear and are discussing our own ideas.

Regarding location, even if Yooks weren't seen on Snowpeak, it is not too much of a stretch to imagine them migrating to this environment. Exploration was very limited on Snowpeak.

I'm giving up on further responses over this Chilfos stuff. We have gone off of track again, moving onto the realms of campaign maps and faction ideas instead of trying to route out bugs and imbalances of the current release. We should be moving back to that.

I'm not certain that it matters whether or not we are discussing imbalance issues or ideas for expanded/new factions. Please present imbalance issues if you have them but allow me to post my ideas. I'm finding the discussion for an ice faction based on LoZ lore quite fascinating.

[Duke Serkol]

This is starting to get rather frustrating, it is feeling like I am preaching to old people with their hearing aids off.

Oh, I assure you: the feeling is 100% mutual.

What I meant was that the Yooks would be enslaving the Anouki but not in the Chilfos Faction, but in a separate one entirely.

And what I keep saying is that it would be better to have them in separate factions so they can fight one another.

I do think that the Gohma and Chilfos would be rival factions instead of cordial ones, due to both of them wishing to conquer and consume but in different ways, that and I expect most Gohma would struggle in the frozen wastes left behind by Chilfos.

To this, I agree.

What is the point of adapting to being able to fight something after you have finished defeating it?

It's been working fairly well for Megaman, but yes, I see what you mean.

Why would it not give them additional powers? They are creatures made from magic, therefore changes to the methods of the spell will produce different results.

Yes, but would it be sufficient for Frostare or whomever to just observe Gorons or Fairies in order to come up with different ways/spells to craft Chillfos?
How would ice work better for this than say, clay? (As of old fashioned Golems). There's no particular reason the chillfos should be so incredibly adaptive. They aren't Borgs.
Still hey, if people like the idea, I'm okay with that. Let's just make sure the requirements make sense.

The Yooks lived on a single island in the World of the Ocean King which is not linked to Hyrule at all like Snowpeak is

So did their neighbours the Aonuki, but then along came Spirit Tracks and they showed up in Hyrule. So it's not that big of a stretch. After all, even with Termina the cultures were different but the races were the same.
And Snowpeak had Yetis, which are extremely similar anyway.

Yook civilisation is barely existent, they lived on an ice field and had to steal from the Anouki to get hold of anything, they were bullies and extremely unintelligent.

Whereas Chillfos civilization is completely nonexistant since (as Eleos points out) they are just monsters wandering down the halls of Snowpeak mansion without any purpose other than kill anybody that comes their way.

If these enemies had been seen in multiple games across multiple timelines (such as Stalfos) I would not have a problem with their inclusion and being expanded upon. No Chilfos have ever been identified in any form other than the one encountered in a cursed mansion on Snowpeak. Tweaking their appearance would be no problem for, perhaps, one advanced unit but making them into an entire faction is problematic lore wise.
...
I cannot speak directly for them, but from my interpretation of Duke's and Opus' posts indicates they are trying to flesh out the faction with units found within the games.

Yeah, we did see many types of Stalfos and Gohma over the ages, but only one chillfos. That's why it feels necessary to add other ice based creatures like the Freezards and Frostare as well as an intelligent (albeit little) race, the Yook.

People really need to use their brains a little, as I have -NEVER- said that the Chilfos would make copied versions of other races.

I was pretty sure you did at some point say that. Even if you didn't, this doesn't make it okay for you to be so insulting.
We are not obliged to like every idea you come up with, you know. And the funny thing is, I'm not even saying I'm opposed to it. I'm just saying that this idea and that of combining the faction with Yooks are not mutually exclusive.
Heck, if they were both implemented, the Yooks would eventually become a minority anyway as you gain more and more chillfos variants, so you should probably be happy with that outcome.

If the Chilfos conquer a Gohma owned territory, or a territory where Gohma thrive (you could represent populations through the use of Hidden Resources I believe), then the Chilfos would not get a Gohma shaped ice cube, but instead something that represents what they are. The Gohma strength lies in absolutely massive forces that are swift... what unit would the Chilfos get? I do not know, but a Mini-freezard makes sense due to their size, speed and complete lack of rarity in the games. You could have a giant swarm of Mini-Freezards as the unit gained by claiming territory owned by the Gohma, weak in power and health but their overwhelming numbers will win the day.

Or in the case of conquering a Wizzrobe territory, it does not mean that they will gain pretty little owls made of snow, but instead a unit which represents the Wizzrobe strengths aka Magic. This could take numerous forms, anything from a Chilfos which acts like a Glaciomancer to a monstrous ice snake that vomits raining shards of ice across huge distances. Or the Gorons whose strengths lay in very powerful units and siege weapons, you could get a monster that is classed as a siege weapon as your unit gained from war, or perhaps just a large Chilfos who is made of sterner ice (or even an ice/rock combo) that can take more punches and deal them back out.

The idea behind these is that the Chilfos gain new units in order to adapt to match the strengths of their foes, they follow that old saying "fight fire with fire", but do it in a far cooler way (har har har, cool puns). This means that as they conquer and adapt to new foes (remember, adaption is a key aspect of all aspects of life, even war adapts), they become stronger.. but on the same vein, they grow weaker if they begin to be conquered.

Okay, this sounds pretty good, and I'd say my only qualm with it would be the link between new ways to create Chillfos and conquered territory. If we can find a logical reason to tie the two, that'd solve the issue.
...maybe something to do with the magical force of the land? You know, as in Four Swords Adventure and Minish Cap in which the four elements were introduced into Hyrule and (in FSA) you could find these spontaneously crystallizing into force gems all over the place.
Or if we can't find a logical reason to tie the two together, it could be some other thing, like observation of the enemy through succesful battle, that grants you the new units. But then the new units could be made anywhere and never taken away from them...

If we ran with a Frost faction consisting of Chilfos, Yeti's, Yooks, Frostare and Anouki.. we would be creating a faction which plays out like many standard Total War factions.

I already agreed to remove the Yeti and Anouki on account of them being good guys that won't mix themselves with Chillfos and Yooks.
So It'd be just Chillfos (made and led by Frostare) allied with Yooks.

I'm giving up on further responses over this Chilfos stuff.

Oh, maybe you are but I'm not.
I'd like to hear ideas as to what exactly could link availability of new units with conquered territory.

Anybody got some?

[Opus]

Could it go that they gain units like the Native Americans for fighting in the sun. like the originals are weakened by the heat but they gain some that are stronger and more resilient.

[PaulH]

I apologise for being insulting, it has been a long and tiring day, and wasn't in the mood to yet again explain that Gorons or Fairies made of Ice wouldn't be joining the Chilfos.

[Lordbuxton]

No opinions for my suggestions for the Wizrobe faction?

[Duke Serkol]

Could it go that they gain units like the Native Americans for fighting in the sun. like the originals are weakened by the heat but they gain some that are stronger and more resilient.

Ah... I'm not sure what you mean. Could you elaborate on that?

I apologise for being insulting, it has been a long and tiring day, and wasn't in the mood to yet again explain that Gorons or Fairies made of Ice wouldn't be joining the Chilfos.

Ah, it's okay, we all have days like that.
So, I take if from your explanation in the previous post that not all new units gained in this manner would be strictly speaking chillfos, that some like the ones from the Gohma territory would be Freezards and such.
That sounds good to me, makes room for some of the ice creatures that Opus dug up from the various games

No opinions for my suggestions for the Wizrobe faction?

I haven't tried them out yet, so I can't offer any feedback there, sorry.

[Opus]

in americas the Cherokee gained horses and guns through fighting them. so why not the chilfos adapt to putting more magic into a chilfos so they last longer in the sun. by fighting in the heat the Frostare would relise the need to better equip his minions

[PaulH]

I suppose calling it a Chilfos only faction would be silly, as I'd want to see Freezards, Mini-Freezards, Frostare etc. so it's more a faction of creatures forged of ice rather than only Chilfos. Reason I kept mentioning Chilfos is due to the many possibilities we could have with their designs.

[Avatar of the Ice Wolf]

Also I do think that the Gohma and Chilfos would be rival factions instead of cordial ones, due to both of them wishing to conquer and consume but in different ways, that and I expect most Gohma would struggle in the frozen wastes left behind by Chilfos.

Here are my reasons for believing that Gohma and the Chilfos would be cordial factions and not rival factions.

1. Keep in mind that Sulkaris is the will behind every Gohma. She does not care about the Gohma themselves, merely using them as a tool to consume Hyrule. If another faction seems capable of this she might consider an alliance with them.
2. Having the Gohma and Chilfos as rival factions would be impractical due to the distance between them. (Assuming of course that the Chilfos will still be stationed in the southern mountain range.)
3. A Gohma-Chilfos alliance in the campaign will trap the other factions between the jaws of those who want to consume. It creates the effect that there is a threat lurking on the horizon and its all around you.

[PaulH]

No opinions for my suggestions for the Wizrobe faction?

I cant seem to find your suggestions

And the place I designed the Chilfos to start in was the mountains between the Zora and the Fairies. This was to fill the northern void between East and West.

[Duke Serkol]

in americas the Cherokee gained horses and guns through fighting them.

Ah, so that is possible. How does that work out exactly? Do they have to win the battle in order to obtain the opponent's stuff?

I suppose calling it a Chilfos only faction would be silly, as I'd want to see Freezards, Mini-Freezards, Frostare etc. so it's more a faction of creatures forged of ice rather than only Chilfos. Reason I kept mentioning Chilfos is due to the many possibilities we could have with their designs.

Gotcha... I already like it more now

...still would want them to be in an alliance with the Yook though

3. A Gohma-Chilfos alliance in the campaign will trap the other factions between the jaws of those who want to consume. It creates the effect that there is a threat lurking on the horizon and its all around you.

That wouldn't require them to be cordial though. The rest of Hyrule could still be surrounded by the two of them even if they were rival factions.
(Not that it's like that in my map, just saying)

I cant seem to find your suggestions

Some words on the Wizzrobes.
1) AI can't use the faction, their units go into skirmish mode and retreat constantly, unable to fire of a single spell. I suggest coding them as missile cavalry then allow them all to float (they can fire while retreating/moving) , however if this was done it would be essential to reduce their numbers and increase their cost so they're not overpowered.


2) Unit costs don't seem to correspond to their strengths, water mages cost the same as pyromancers and elctromancers.

3) Will they be hireable as mercenaries for some of the other factions?

Here you go Paul

[Lordbuxton]

I cant seem to find your suggestions

And the place I designed the Chilfos to start in was the mountains between the Zora and the Fairies. This was to fill the northern void between East and West.

Third post down from this page.
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Some words on the Wizzrobes.
1) AI can't use the faction, their units go into skirmish mode and retreat constantly, unable to fire of a single spell. I suggest coding them as missile cavalry then allow them all to float (they can fire while retreating/moving) , however if this was done it would be essential to reduce their numbers and increase their cost so they're not overpowered.


2) Unit costs don't seem to correspond to their strengths, water mages cost the same as pyromancers and elctromancers.

3) Will they be hireable as mercenaries for some of the other factions?

[The Holy Pilgrim]

1) AI can't use the faction, their units go into skirmish mode and retreat constantly, unable to fire of a single spell. I suggest coding them as missile cavalry then allow them all to float (they can fire while retreating/moving) , however if this was done it would be essential to reduce their numbers and increase their cost so they're not overpowered.

This could be easily fixed. Just add "cannot_skirmish" to the attributes line in the EDU and they won't skirmish ever again.

[Briarius]

This could be easily fixed. Just add "cannot_skirmish" to the attributes line in the EDU and they won't skirmish ever again.

Holy, Pilgrim!!! That's something I've been looking for ages! Thanks.

Sorry to interrupt guys! Keep up the great work Neph!

[Duke Serkol]

There's one thing I can comment about: I wouldn't expect to see the Wizzrobes as mercenaries. Why would they be when they have their own faction?

[Eleos]

Some words on the Wizzrobes.
1) AI can't use the faction, their units go into skirmish mode and retreat constantly, unable to fire of a single spell. I suggest coding them as missile cavalry then allow them all to float (they can fire while retreating/moving) , however if this was done it would be essential to reduce their numbers and increase their cost so they're not overpowered.

I really like the idea of having one of the levitating units coded as mounted archers. It would make them devastatingly quick and a true infantry killer. Plus, seeing levitating Wizzrobes in a Cambrian Circle would be EXCELLENT!

There's one thing I can comment about: I wouldn't expect to see the Wizzrobes as mercenaries. Why would they be when they have their own faction?

I kind of like the idea. Rogue Wizzrobes outcast from the order? Why not?

[Duke Serkol]

Mh... I guess I'm not against it. Just don't see why it wouldn't apply to most units of all other factions then.