Ammendment: Griefing Rules

[Musthavename]

Given that everyone seems to be in confusion over this I thought i'd propose a rule change, or rather, creation of some rules, since frankly the one that is there was designed for a time before PvP was even possible. It was a rule designed to protect people's work, since theft simply wasn't an issue. Here's the existing rlue, and the proposal.

Current Rule:

1) No destroying anybody else's buildings without their permission, period. If by accident you destroy a block that is a part of a building you should replace it.

Proposed Rule:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You may not damage/destroy the land/buildings of others, except under the following circumstances, which are only in effect on the PvP server.
- You have destroyed a few blocks revealing a hidden treasure room. Note that repeated damage to buildings without the both the intention and a reasonable chance of finding such rooms is indeed griefing. Such searching may only be done outside combat.
- You have used blocks/other items to get yourself into a difficult to reach or impossible to reach position. This can only be done outside of combat, otherwise, only ladders are permitted, and defenders cannot be unreachable in accordance with other rules. Once you are finished, you must destroy all blocks you changed.
- Note that there should be a reasonable attempt to find a legitimate means of access. These exceptions are only permitted if the player has already exhausted other solutions.
These exceptions do not apply on the Builders Server. If you accidentally damage another player's building, that damage should be repaired as soon as possible.

Use of transparant texture packs and/or deliberate glitching to reveal chunks, with the aim of either finding natural resources, or the resources of others, is banned. Due to the nature of such crime, it is ofcourse very difficult to prove this. However, this rule is here to indicate that such methods are regarded as illegal.

Edit: Thievery on the PvP server is legal. The Golden Rule does not apply in this case, nor other PvP related cases.

There. My reasoning for these alterations is simple. I do not believe it is right that simply burying your treasure beneath whatever block you fancy should make it impregnable simply because of griefing rules, especially if those blocks are then replaced. Another reason is that if you ruled that it was griefing, it quickly becomes very unenforceable and unworkable. Any good thief would simply do it when no-one was looking. Likewise, any such rule would effectivly outlaw stealing/looting in PvP. As much as I would like a situation where treasure is protected via cunning traps, there is no way to prevent someone simply blocking off their resources, and so any rule barring making such resources unreachable would be completely unenforceable and simply put those who did follow the rule at a disadvantage. Lastly, it's perfectly possible through the use of bland/remote locations, decoys, and/or well-designed traps, to add in enough of a challenge in stealing your resources in the first place.

The last bit was just to declare that such things are deemed illegal, even if it is incredibly difficult to enforce.

I'll allow for some discussion on this before putting it to a vote.

Edit: Added one last line, since nothing in the rules actually states about stealing AFAIK.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

i personally dont like the idia much

[Musthavename]

Reasoning? I'd like it if you could respond to the reasons i've stated on why such "griefing" infractions are completely daft and unworkable.

[Tuor]

I like the proposal, but I have a question. Under this system, would someone still be able to hide their treasures in a purely unnoticeable spot that has to be griefed to be entered, just without punishment of the griefer/treasure-hunter? I just want to make sure that there are still no restrictions on where you put your treasure and how accessible it is.

[Musthavename]

No. There is no rule preventing that. I simply commented that such a rule banning such defence would also be unworkable. You would, as you currently are able to, be able to protect your treasure in whatever complicated way you can possibly imagine.

Apologies for the confusion. To further clarify: The proposal is only the section in spoilers. Everything else is explanation.

[.Mitch.]

I support.

This is a PVP server, not the build server.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

i dont agree with the "as long as you fix it its ok to destroy things" part.
sometimes you might want to make some secret passage,but how is it secret if they can remove all walls and replace?

[Musthavename]

It depends on the purpose. As the proposal indicates, you cannot simply use the "destroy and repair" method when PvP is occuring. I have updated the proposal to clarify this.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

not when PVP is occuring,but they can just go there,destroy everything to find all secrets,and then rebuild and exploit them during pvp

[Musthavename]

Well, two responses to that:

- You'd have to catch someone doing this in the first place. If you actually saw someone doing this, then you can engage in PvP and stop it. If you don't see them doing it, you have no way of proving they did it anway.
- The rules allow for a bit of common sense. The "destroy and rebuild" rule is only applied to "finding treasure rooms". If it was completely obvious someone was taking away large swathes of stone looking for traps and such with little to no chance of finding treasure, then they're griefing, and the proposal allows for that.

I've even altered the proposal to make that more clear.

[Katsumoto]

They can do that now if they wanted to when nobody is on.

There really needs to be a sense of trust between the Kingdoms to abide to the rules. If people are just going to accuse and whatnot, we're never going get anywhere. People need to realise that it's a game. There is no need to take it so seriously, just enjoy yourself. All these rules wouldn't be necessary if people just trusted each other and acted maturely, and the played the game fairly. There is nothing to gain from 'winning' here. We're all in it to have fun.

[Vanoi]

I like this amendment. keeps peopel from complaining about getting there hidden treasure rooms broken into.

[Pat89]

I like it

A question about something I didn't really get clear from reading the post, what if there is an entrance, but people simply didn't search well enough? I for example have a hidden entrance, but I'm not sure if it might be too well hidden to let thieves claim "I couldn't find one so I grieved". I understand it's impossible to define if an entrance is poorly hidden or well hidden, as it also depends on the searching skills of the thief... But what is "within the reasonable to find"?

And another question about the difficulty to get to a place. What if a place is simply hard to reach, but not impossible to reach? (like having to jump over a deep hole killing you if you fall or have a complex system of gates or a maze to just let the enemy get lost in the hope he gives up). Are you allowed to grieve in these occasions? (imo not - a thief should be ready to face a challenge...)

- You have used blocks/other items to get yourself into a difficult to reach or impossible to reach position. This can only be done outside of combat, otherwise, only ladders are permitted, and defenders cannot be unreachable in accordance with other rules. Once you are finished, you must destroy all blocks you changed.

I suppose that is to allow thieves to get to things like treasure boxes floating high in the sky or something, right?

Sorry for the many questions but overall I really like your suggestion

[King Sama]

Well, regardless of the rest, I appreciate the thread Lets hope this clears things up a bit.

[Doyle141]

Lulz, now I think back on it, the Bastards need this tactic to be able to steal from Aeseth. Despite the numerous entrances to our storage spots they continuously do it to get our stuff. Twice so far, which I find . I'll take them up on it if they don't stop, since the rule amendment hasn't been voted in yet

[Selukon]

Lulz, now I think back on it, the Bastards need this tactic to be able to steal from Aeseth. Despite the numerous entrances to our storage spots they continuously do it to get our stuff. Twice so far, which I find . I'll take them up on it if they don't stop, since the rule amendment hasn't been voted in yet

More than twice atleast. Multiple times in the first city storage room, our food stores, and New AEseth (aka my city, aka the sand one)

[Remlap]

I like everything but the edit. I think thieving should be allowed and immune from the golden rule but only if there are limits on it so that 1 territory cannot be raided by 3 different people within 24 hours. Imo it is a fair tradeoff for the golden rule not applying to theft. Probably won't happen but I thought I would suggest it.

I think Pat raises a good point, what if someone can't be arsed to figure it out or get in through the entrance provided, I'm not saying secret ones that are ridiculously hard to find out of sight from the city/building. As long as entrance is feasible without impossibility or ridiculous amounts of luck it should be the only allowed method of entry. This should include iron doors imo, because you only need a redstone torch to open them. In this manner redstone torches should be regarded as ladders in combat or changes made to access areas, as long as it is removed afterwards.

My 2cents.

[Akar]

Entirely against.

[Pat89]

Rem, If red stone torches may be used to open doors, then what's the point of having an iron door in the first place?

(btw, what about letting the few people that vote for new members to be allowed make up some rules here? There are way too many different opinions in such a public thing )

[Visorslash]

Against. Entirely.