Consulate of Septimus and Poplicola - 540AVC

[Junius]

Agrippa rises.

Pallas, please remove your snakes from the Curia; the Senate is not the place for your pets. Caldius, another such baseless accusation or outburst shall raise the ire of the censorship. Consider yourselves warned.

May I remind the Senate that Gracchus was not made evil by the office of tribune. Yes, he abused the powers of the office for his own gain, but such misuse should not mean that the office, created by our illustrious forefathers be abandoned. Reform is needed, but the sweeping legislation of Pallas. What is needed is the reintroduction of another Tribune, with the veto only being enforceable if the two tribunes are in agreement. I would offer this law up as a better alternative to that already under discussion.

Lex Furia de Tribunicia Potestate

1. There shall be two Tribunes of the People elected in the manner of their predecessors.
2. The ability to veto a new law or discussion of a new law would only be possible when both Tribunes deliver the veto.

I would also like my law from the previous term to be put up for debate and the ballot.

Regarding the position in Macedonia, we must defend our lands. I propose that we elect an Extraordinary Suffectus Propraetor to secure the city and hinterlands of Dyyrhachium. The office shall last until the enemy has been driven out of Illyria, and shall hold Imperium in the province. He shall be granted the command of one allied half legion and shall be given sufficient funds to raise mercenaries to ensure victory. I do not often go about looking for bands of mercenaries for hire, and so am unfamiliar with how much exactly that fund should be, but I put my trust in other Senators, more familiar with the pecuniary compensation of hired blades to put forward a figure.

[Gotenus]

I would prefer Agrippa's law over the one introduced by Pallas.

[Beowulf1990]

In regards to mercenaries, if deemed necessary by the senate. I would say that the cost of mercenaries often outweighs their usefulness in battle, they can prove a significant drain upon the treasury. They are payed killers, they have no loyalty to us and will not hesitate to change sides or simply run should they be offered compensation or if faced by an unlikely victory. Therefore I would recommend relying as much as possible upon Roman or allied forces. Good men, with good loyalty and training are worth 10 each of mercenaries.

[Gotenus]

While I agree that mercenaries are rather untrustworty, my plan would be like how we hope to obtain the Baleares. We shall send the mercenaries in first, let them either kill all of the enemy, or at least most, and then our Roman men shall finish off the rest. The mercenaries will likely rout, but they will be our fodder, to die in the stead of Romen men. And then we shall disband them after the battle if their numbers are lower.

[Beowulf1990]

If the senate believes the expense in gold is acceptable, I would support that plan of action.

[Nota']

Senators, we must not overextend ourselves. Expanding into Macedonian terriotory will mean more borders to defend, more lands to pacify. Rome does not need this! Yes it would teach Phillip a lesson, never to underestimate us again, forcing him to come back with a larger army to seek revenge. We must focus ourselves on Spain and Carthage.
However I would like to support a motion to raise a third legion for the defense of Italian and nearby settlements, to be used in an emergency for defence.

[Beowulf1990]

Why would it be needed to hold any lands? Why not simply destoy their army and sack the nearest major city? It would allow us to weaken them without making ourselves vulnerable. If would have reliable information on Macedonian garrisons, it would be childsplay for a Legion to cause serious damage with limited casualties. And as suggested before, perhaps employing mercenaries as a buffer.
We MUST show them that Rome wil never turn a blind eye to agression!

[RebelCub]

I concur with Scaeva. We are already holding on to the Carthaginian wolf by the ears with both hands, let us not take one hand off an ear and grab onto another wolf unnecessarily.

Further, I second amicus Scaeva's motion of an Italian defense force.

[RebelCub]

Senator Scapula should remember that these Makedonians are not real Greeks, thus they are students of nothing but goat herding and their own delusions of grandeur leftover from the expeditions of that drunken boy of theirs a century past. Therefore, I feel teaching them a lesson will do no good.

[Junius]

I agree that a third legion must be raised, and have advocated for such things.

We need to drive back the Macedonians. While Carthage remains our largest threat, we mustn't allow other nations to see us as vulnerable, and that they may take what they want from us with impunity. Though total war with the Macedonians is out of the question while we are at war with the greater enemy, Macedon must be punished. Therefore, I agree Tiberius Valerius, in that a punitive expedition should take place, which would capture, sack and then abandon a large Macedonian city.

However, we must proceed with prudence. We should not rely totally on the spirit and reputation of our fighting men, but make sure that all is done to ensure victory.

[Beowulf1990]

Never underestimate an opponent Varro....you will find that the Macedonians have more than enough bite left to pose serious problems to our fine Republic if left unchecked. Their former glory may have passed, but they are still fine warriors and ambitious men. To leave such a wolf, as you call them, unchained may lead to a bad bite mark upon our side.

*nods to Agrippa*

[Nota']

I think we should have a legion of half allies and half Romans, meaning less strain is put on one city, as not even Rome can afford to loose another legions worth of young men.
But who should lead such a legion? The Praetor? No, we must have at least one senior magistrate in Rome. I say we elect a Proconsul or Propaetor for Dyrrachium to lead the Legion. Someone should fetch one of the consuls before they leave so the legion recruitment and the temporary mercenary reinforcements can by put to the vote as a motion.

OOC: Aspis or dragoon, that means put it to the vote please, I didn't mean to actually to get you in RP. ^^

[Beowulf1990]

I support the motion to appoint a propraetor or proconsul to command the third Legion.

I also agree that spreading the load is a wise choice, however not from more than 2 cities. Else the men would become too fragmented. It is always best to have an as homogenous force as possible.

[Gotenus]

If we try to go into a city, obtain it, sack it, and leave, then it will all have been a waste. We shall have dealt a blow, but what a bigger blow to keep the city.

A senator once foolishly considered pulling out of Spain. It was almost made a law that those who propose pulling out of a place Roman blood has been spilled was to be considered a traitor. If we take a major Makedonian territory, and Roman blood is spilled, we shall have the situation that we once had.

If you believe that the Makedonians are not like regular Greeks, that they are simply goat herders, then what better then to have them herd their goats for us.

For those who believe that we are overextending ourselves, think of this. We already have a foothold in Illyria. What matters if we extend it to the knee. They will attack us anyway. The Balkans are rich in resources. While they do not have the gold and silver that Spain has, they are not afar off. They are closer to Rome, so we can defend them much easier then we can in Spain.

It will take a year to conquer the Balearic Islands. It will take years more to conquer Spain. It shall take a year to conquer much of the Balkans. Years more and we could be imposing on the Greek Cities. It won't go that far. My point is that it is much simpler to attack close to home than it is all the way in Spain and Africa.

I'm not saying that we conquer all of the Antigonids. I am certain that they have their own quarrels with the Free Greeks and the men north of them. But while many believe that we would overextend our hand in taking Makedon, the truth is that the Antigonids have overextended themselves in trying to take our Illyrian province. Now is our time to show that they shouldn't consider opposing our rule again.

[Beowulf1990]

I speak not of abandoning our foothold friend Lucius. A punitive expedition to sack a city, then to return to Illyria. We are not abandoning Greece as we would have Iberia. To expand deep into Greek mountains and hills is a dangerous plan indeed. Many resources would need be assigned that could better serve to defeat the true threat, Carthage. If you were to truly apply the principle of "where Roman blood flows the ground is Roman" We would never be able to venture from Roman lands without annexing everything around us.


No, I will not support the waste of Roman blood and gold on regions that will not better the Republic and will be difficult to keep. The conquest of Macedon and Greece is to be considered only after the Republic is at last safe from the snakes in Africa.

[Nota']

*Spurius pondered for a moment. He too would be going to Spain with Septimus, but he had less preparation to, so could afford to spend his last days in the senate.*
Well, how about we recruit 4 cohorts and 4 allied skimishers and 1 unit of allied triarii from Arretium, and 4 cohorts, 2 units of Triarii, 2 units of equites and a unit of latium cavalry from Rome. All, of course, equipped from the fine foundaries of Rome, with high quality armour and weapons, something the departing allied legion is lacking...
*Spurius shook his head, clearly displeased about the neglection of the legion he was going to be fighting with.*
I beg the senate to subsidise the armour and weapons of the legion, to insure they can all afford the armour I speak of. If any of you have served, you will know of the equipment some men have to cope with when going to war. Why should we spend so much on wages only to have our men felled by glancing blows? No, for this legion alone, I suggest we partially fund its equipment with public money so they can be a better investment. After recruitment the men would have to fund any replacement equipment of course.
Is this proposal to your satisfaction senators? Speak quickly, before the consuls board the ships for spain.

OOC: I would put it as a motion with the merc idea, but I know no latin. If anyone who knows latin could put it forward I would be grateful. Something like Law of the emergency recruitment and defensive armies, but better

[Gotenus]

*Lucius takes a glance at Pallas, smirking on the inside.*

What then when we take care of Carthage in Spain and Africe? We shall still be fighting on three fronts. The barbarians that are in Spain who oppose both Carthage and us, shall want all of Spain. I do not trust the Gauls in the north enough to not try to sack Rome, as they did a century ago. I expect the Makedonians to attack again with an even larger force. If we have more land in Makedon, and, the Gods forbid, the Makedonians send such a large force that they overwhelm a settlement, then we shall not have lost hope, because we still have another settlement to keep our stance in Greece with.

EDIT: My post was designed to be after Beowulf's. I'll try google translate TGC, but I expect it to fail on the Latin.

EDIT2: Lex Spuria ad defensionem conscribi Illyricum. How's that? Putting it back in for Latin->English butchers it though, so somebody should probably have a better alternative.

[Beowulf1990]

No matter the plan, such a force would seem suitable to me....yes, I will support you senator Scaeva.

To Lucius I say the following, what you propose is a logical fallacy. Namely the suggestion that if we win a province we may use it as a buffer in the case of defeat at the hands off an overwhelming force. This would only be possible through the loss of the garrisson and the Legion, therefore we would not be able to protect Illyria adaquately in either case. Only your way would have us expend more resources securing the province to begin with. Not to mention the spilt Roman blood.
Besides, as you mentioned yourself I believe, Illyria is quite closeby and reinforcement could be dispatched well in time to assist the defenders.

Now if you'll excuse me, I really must arrange my things in my Domus. I have not even had the chance to organise the slaves yet.
*Exits the Curia*



OOC: I'm must admit slight confusion, was this not Pre-Marian reforms? Thusly do the legionaires not supply their own equipment?

[Gotenus]

Perhaps this is how it should be presented?

Lex Spuria ad defensionem conscribi Illyricum

I. All mercenaries who can be recruited in a timely and conservative manner in terms of money shall be recruited, and sent to Dyrrachium immediately.
II. When next available, four units of allied cohorts, four units of allied skirmishers, and one units of allied triarii be recruited from Arretium and equipped with the best available armour and weapons.
III. To also be prepared will be four units of Roman cohorts, four units of Roman skirmishers, two units of Roman Equites, and one unit of Latin Cavalry to be recurited from Rome, outfitted, and sent to Illyria.

EDIT: Feel free to change this, I GTG for a couple of hours.

[chaplain118]

All Italian cities are capable of levying troops, are they not? That alone will give us almost a full allied legion (ooc: 6 units, with 10 units being a full legion and 20 units being a full army). Levying the necessary troops is more than possible and should be done as quickly as possible. I support this motion.