Consulate of Septimus and Poplicola - 540AVC

[War lord]

No office is a danger in the right hands,but it is clear that a Demagogue welding a powerful office,which has little real legitimacy,is a recipe for insurrection.

[Gotenus]

I can see you are not Greek. All logic is gone from your actions. Where is the proof? Where is the Praetor's support?

Why, as a so called "Plebeian" yourself, would you go against the very people whom you associate yourself with, and remove their only voice in the senate?

OOC: My first sentence was designed to be right after the call for arrest, but I typed too slow. The post still somewhat applies in the place that it is.

[War lord]

I can see you are not Greek. All logic is gone from your actions. Where is the proof? Where is the Praetor's support?

Why, as a so called "Plebeian" yourself, would you go against the very people whom you associate yourself with, and remove their only voice in the senate?

But that's the thing,many of the people are against the idea of a tribune.This man represents only a small faction within Rome.

[chaplain118]

Perhaps it is because Senator Caelius has seen the errors of his ways, or he has recognized the very fault of a single man wielding the massive power of the veto. As for removing the sacrosanctity of the tribune, why that removes any means he has of being tribune, the guardian of the people, as they themselves so fancy. For if a tribune can simply be killed to remove his veto and the people swayed, then why have the office at all?

And I swear by the black Acheron itself, Conscript Fathers, that so long as I live, no tribunes, be he an elected one or not, will ever live to see his term concluded. Take it as a threat if you wish, but this promise will be made lawful, and the people will applaud it! Rome can ill afford a second Gracchus, and any man who rises to have a chance of becoming him will die

ooc: enter Pallas

[AspisPhalanx90]

The Consul raised his arms to call order to the room

Senators. Please. Discussion of the office of tribune is perfectly fine to be debated, however, i insist that you mind your tounges when it comes to accusations such as treason. The last thing we need in this rooms is discord. Senator Licinius, you say that no office is in danger in the right hands. Gracchus was clearly the wrong hands. But Senator Gerges has done no wrong, and i personally feel he is upholding the position modestly. I request that you men uphold the dignity of your position here in this chamber and keep this girlish personal squabbles to a minimum in these halls.

ooc: supposed to be said AFTER gotenus, but this thread is burning

[chaplain118]

Gerges has done no wrong, but what happens when another power hungry pleb like Gracchus rises to the same position? How can we ever, ever dispel the infamy that Unspeakable man has cast upon this office? Prevention is the best cure to any disease, and the disease of demagogues will be forever cured if the means of them attaining power is removed.

[Gotenus]

What then when a foolish consul makes a stupid move against the carthaginians? Or a governor uses all of our funds on his own territory? Shall we just abolish their offices because one person ruined it for everybody else?

[War lord]

Aulus smirks at Poplicola.

Nether of those examples involve an attempted Coup.

[Gotenus]

Suppose a consul took an army with him to the Makedonians, intending fully to give them the army and become part of their royal family, and then led the army against us. Would that not be just as bad. Or the governor of Sicily surrendur fully to the Cathaginians, and lead the people of Sicily with the Carthaginians against us.

[chaplain118]

They did not directly threaten to physically destroy Rome!

Pallas pushed himself from his chair and walked towards the center of the Curia. His step was oddly irregular, almost as if he were walking in rhythm. When he started talking, he paced, back and forth, back and forth. But he kept to the irregular rhythm that he was pacing.

Poplicola may have been defeated by the Carthaginians, but he killed Hannibal in that engagement. The death of Hannibal essentially stopped any drive for the Carthaginians to continue their invasion en masse. You call that the same as Gracchus inciting men to rape and pillage from their fellow citizens? The same as Gracchus urging his cohorts to rape the Vestal Virgins, whom even the former Kings did not dare touch? When a governor oversteps his boundaries, disappears, or refuses to answer the Senate's calls, the Senate sends new men to take control, to dismantle the works that have drained the treasury, and to restore order to the province, as Scaurus had done last term. You call that the same as Gracchus urging the mob to torch the Senate House, this very house that you have a privilege to stand on was rebuilt from the bricks that Gracchus had so easily torn down. His threats did not only end physically, it would've destroyed the very foundations of Rome. Land would be wrested from every landowner here and distributed to such a large amount of people that effective grain shipments would've plummeted and Italy starved. That is what you prefer? That was the power of a tribune!

He continued to pace, and continued to speak. Echoes of hissing was heard in the chamber. A pair of snakes slithered from their hiding places headed for him. They did not attack for he had stopped moving and instead turned his gaze upon the rest of the Senate as the snakes coiled and undulated before him, their tongues darting in and out to taste the dry air.

ooc: I can explain how the snakes got here in the ooc thread

[Gotenus]

Any man in any position has the same power. Suppose we remove the Tribune of the Plebs. What will you remove next? The consulate? Perhaps you would like to lead a dictatorship, governed by divine and holy pow-

Gotenus stopped mid sentence upon seeing the snakes.

[chaplain118]

You were saying?

At the sound of his voice, the snakes grew agitated again and they reared their heads. But silence fell and they relaxed their stance. Pallas began pacing again, and the snakes followed. He spoke, but his voice was barely a whispered amplified only by the acoustics of the room.

The removal of the Tribunate was a necessary sacrifice for the betterment of the Republic. If we had simply let Gracchus continue with his madness, if we had simply allowed the Tribunate to continue, we would be fighting ourselves far more than fighting the Punics, or the Antigonids, or the Gauls. The people were pacified when Gracchus' lies were exposed, Rome was saved when Gracchus' revolt was suppressed. Yes, one bad apple ruins the bunch, but when the healthy apples spring from a rotten tree, then we must destroy the root of the problem:

The tree itself.

I propose a motion

Senatus Consultum de Tribunicia Potestate

I. The office of Plebeian Tribune is to be completely abolished.
II. Instead, two men will be elected Representatives of the People, one Patrician and one Plebeian
III. They will hold the power of the veto only if they are both in agreement, if not, then their veto is meaningless
IV. The status of sacrosanctity is afforded only if they are standing within the Curia Hostilia.

A workable compromise, wouldn't you agree?

Silence fell again, and the snakes continued to circle around Pallas

[War lord]

Opposed,

Naturally you would consider yourself the ideal Patrician candidate?

[chaplain118]

Don't be ridiculous. That is for this chamber to decide. And really, Caelius, I was even thinking of proposing that you take the position were it not for your sudden, switch of hands.

[War lord]

Don't be ridiculous. That is for this chamber to decide. And really, Caelius, I was even thinking of proposing that you take the position were it not for your sudden, switch of hands.

I'm a Plebian,not a puppet Pallas.

[Gotenus]

Sacrosanctity of the tribune should be in every place they go. Maybe you would like to take them one foot outside of the Curia and deal with them there.

[dragoon47]

I would like to remind this chamber that Titus Cassius Gerges was loyal to the republic during the entire incident, willing to risk his life to veto the decision of his co-tribune.

Yes, that's correct, co-tribune. Having two tribunes made no difference as it only took one to disgrace the position and nearly destroy the fabric of this republic.

I am forced to agree with his proposal on these grounds, apart from the fact that there would be a patrician as a representative of the plebeians. This is the only workable compromise.

I can also only remind this chamber that while Trasimene was lost the campaign was a success, eventually we took less casualties than the enemy in hindsight. I feel I cannot stress that enough with senator Cae-I'm sorry, Licinius lurking about, seeming to take every stab he wants at me in these halls for as long as he has been here.

[War lord]

Sacrosanctity of the tribune should be in every place they go. Maybe you would like to take them one foot outside of the Curia and deal with them there.

No doubt that's what He planned.But we are not the fool's he thinks we are.

Co-tribune Valerius?I was under the impression that their is only one?

[dragoon47]

The election was under question, therefore both tribunal candidates saw themselves as tribune and Gracchus stooped to using the plebeian mob to protect his claims. The election was also made a fraud by votes cast by the various Punic messengers that rampaged throughout the city after Claudius was named an enemy of the republic.

Therefore, I am to assume that as long as one tribune somehow gains the appreciation, or rather obsession of the people that not even the other tribune can stop him.

[War lord]

Then how is Pallas's Compromise an improvement?Other then serving his own ends of course.