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Thread: Consulate of Septimus and Poplicola - 540AVC

  1. #181

    Default Re: Consulate of Septimus and Poplicola - 540AVC

    Lucius had heard the echoes of Cassius' rebuttal and hoped he was making the right decision as he entered.

    They will quake with fear regardless after I tell you this. Cathargo Nova has fallen, not only has it fallen, it fell within a day, their mighty fortress in Spain is gone, their metal exports have dwindled and we have won. I ask the senate to return our brave legions home and let smaller units finish up what is the small amount of resistance rumored around the Pillars while we discuss the next fatal blow.

    Lucius then went over the the scribe and looked over the last month's debates, what he saw shocked him.

    Extermination?! By the gods what has gotten into you? These are allies of Rome, you can't just butcher people we call friends unless they strike first.

    I propose that on the way back our legions will pay a visit to Ariminum and revoke their citizenship formally. They know how well-trained and experienced my legions are, they will submit.


    Also, what is this bill about these so-called "legions" hmm? I wouldn't trust these men in an occupation let alone the field of battle. Lacks heavy infantry, overabundance of poor farmers and their puny javelins, have you even seen our cavalry perform in battle without being bled white enough to understand how to ride their bloody horses?!

    I suggest a re-organization of your so-called legions to include more heavy infantry or the complete banishment of them. Overall, they are unnecessary at best and a nuisance at worst.
    Lucius Valerius Poplicola - Patrician - 34






  2. #182
    Maiar93's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Consulate of Septimus and Poplicola - 540AVC

    Unless they strike first, Flavius said. If they strike first, what a rebellion to my point of view is, would you just let them be and let all of Italy to rebel?
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  3. #183

    Default Re: Consulate of Septimus and Poplicola - 540AVC

    sextus smiled when he heard of carthago novas fall, he was amazed that such a large and important settlement wold be let fall. He was also ashamed at how barbaric the talk of his fellow senators had become.
    Ooc- maiar, I don't understand at all wat u r trying to say...
    Last edited by Royal_McKeogh; February 05, 2011 at 11:10 PM.

  4. #184
    drecie14's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Consulate of Septimus and Poplicola - 540AVC

    Titus shook his head in disbelief.

    "What? Did I say I was going to crucify thousands of people?"

    He turned towards Senator Messala.

    "I merely stated crucifixion as one of the methods which we, Romans, use to send a clear message to the locals that resistance or rebellion is futile. Did I say I was going to crucify them?"

    Titus now addressed the Senate.

    "Such an option will only be used when they strike first. I don't believe in exterminating innocent people. Only if they are proven guilty. Yes they are our allies but, should they try to rebel, then they must be dealt with accordingly."
    Last edited by drecie14; February 06, 2011 at 06:37 AM.
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  5. #185
    Maiar93's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Consulate of Septimus and Poplicola - 540AVC

    I don't also believe in exterminating innocent civilians and allies of Rome, but i do believe that it is necessary to exterminate at least the rebel leaders if the town is to rebel. Now we could revoke their citizenship, and see what happens and deal with the results accordingly.
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  6. #186

    Default Re: Consulate of Septimus and Poplicola - 540AVC

    Decimus stands

    Brothers, I wish to again suggest that we allow them to maintain their citizenship and thus avoid any hint of rebellion from them. This also serves our advantage in several ways.

    - First, it will allow us to hide the fact that we lost control of the administration of a province.

    - Second, we can put out a resolution to all of our allies stating that the people of Ariminum received citizenship because of the valor of their allied soldiers in our recent campaigns. That statement would allow us to explain away the abruptness of the citizenship and also would serve as incentive for our other allied cities to continue fighting hard for us if they have the hope of citizenship at the end of the tunnel.

  7. #187

    Default Re: Consulate of Septimus and Poplicola - 540AVC

    I disagree, even a common pleb by now knows what has happened. It is not the "citizens" on Ariminum I am worried about but our own citizens here in Rome. Pallas made sure in his speech to the people to rouse them against any kind of citizenship amongst the allied states, which was Gracchus' wish. If we let Ariminum keep their status as citizens we are looking at another riot here.

    I would rather have thousands of plebs rebel in a place distant from this Curia before I'll see it burned down yet again because the ruling class of this senate is too blind to see the problem right in front of their faces as they look towards things far too distant to have any bearing on a learned man's decision.

    We will take their papers away, we will find the man responsible and crucify him in the town center and we will burn those papers of citizenship around him to prove the point. We will not treat Ariminum lightly just because they didn't join the Latin League, we must remind them that to be allies of Rome they must keep to our standards and they must know the limits of their autonomy.
    Lucius Valerius Poplicola - Patrician - 34






  8. #188
    Nota''s Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Consulate of Septimus and Poplicola - 540AVC

    Quote Originally Posted by dragoon47 View Post
    ...
    Also, what is this bill about these so-called "legions" hmm? I wouldn't trust these men in an occupation let alone the field of battle. Lacks heavy infantry, overabundance of poor farmers and their puny javelins, have you even seen our cavalry perform in battle without being bled white enough to understand how to ride their bloody horses?!

    I suggest a re-organization of your so-called legions to include more heavy infantry or the complete banishment of them. Overall, they are unnecessary at best and a nuisance at worst.
    The repulsion of Hannibal, the Italian rebellion, the campaigns in Spain. All of these have been fought with our Roman cohorts. Who fights in these cohorts? The middle class, Rome's sons and lifeblood. They are not of infinite supply. We will see an economic depression if we drain Rome of her life blood anymore. It is for this reason the number of cohorts have been limited, and mixed with allied soldiers, it is for this reason that the lowerer classes that fill the ranks of the skirmishers have been recruited to make up the difference.

    As for the cavalry, do not underestimate them my dear consul. Where would Alexander have been without his Companions? Have you forgotten the casulties inflicted by Hannibal's Numidians? No, our previous bad experiences with cavalry does not been all cavalry is inferior. They are a cheap improvement to the army that improve a legions flexibility and improve its ability to combat a variety of foes.

    I am willing to concede that the senate may want to do away with the cavalry in the defence legion, however I take my stand at the recruiting of more cohorts.

    *Spurius sits awaiting reply.*

  9. #189

    Default Re: Consulate of Septimus and Poplicola - 540AVC

    You fool, you learned nothing on campaign. The men who bled and did the most damage were our cohorts. Do you now say the Hastati are not of the lower class? Our cavalry at Genoa turned and ran in a winning battle Spurius, they ran almost immediately at Trasimene, they ran during the Battle of Arretium twice, I must say that three coincidences in a row starts to look like a pattern Spurius.

    To compare our knights to Alexander's Companions is folly, no cavalry in world has ever been able to match it since the death of Phyrrus. The Hetairoi are a shadow of their former selves, if they weren't then our Greek allies would have been crushed under the shoes of the Macedonians already. Our infantry have more flexibility than any infantry in the world Spurius, you would do well not to forget that either.

    The velites are outclassed by the Boii, the Carthaginians have Numidians, the Hellenistic powers can recruit Thracians who if I may remind this body practically invented and perfected the art of the javelin. Our skirmishers can barely hope to cancel the other skirmishers out before our main body arrives and what has the blood of our main body been made of? poor and middle class citizens and allies, heavy infantry that can never be stopped. We saw that at Trebia, Hannibal could annihilate the cavalry, the support wings, but our legions still bore right through his center with a somber inevitability.

    I will not stand by and watch you destroy Rome through the distortion and violation of our legions' code of conduct and order of battle. I therefore wish to make the motion we all unofficially agreed on official.


    Lex Valeria De Re Ordo Militari

    -1 tribunal guard
    -2 equites
    -10 cohorts
    -3 triarii
    -2 velites
    -2 mercenaries/2 Campanians for Allied legions
    Who's word do you trust more? Someone's who's command experience was as a mere tribune against 100 men in the Baleares or the man who led the army through Trasimene, Arretium, Genoa and Cathargo Nova? The legions which have gained victory in the last three battlefields and against the Latin league were of my design, of that order. Are we now to change the design that has practically won our war with Carthage because you men are scared for your lives against enemies that can no longer touch us? We can now send our legions to Macedon if you are so afraid of those boy lovers fallen from grace that sent a petty 400 men against our walls and were annihilated by a mere governor with less than a third of the men you are proposing to be put into these miniature legions of yours. I believe it is just a ploy for power, so he may become a legate in wars to interrupt the chain of command within consular armies and take glory for himself.
    Lucius Valerius Poplicola - Patrician - 34






  10. #190
    Nota''s Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Consulate of Septimus and Poplicola - 540AVC

    *Spurius rubbed his brow, even the consul had become emotional, easily angered. That or he was now percieved as a threat...when had the new boy of the senate become a major threat to a man who had been consul for most of the time he had even been in the senate? Maybe it should be taken as a compliment... a rather dangerous compliment.*

    It is not purely a military matter consul. There will be dire consequences if we take more young men, the driving force of the roman economy from the system, not to mention we have to pay them, at quite a large rate at that!
    It is for this reason I put forward an undersized legion, to minimise the ill effects while leaving Rome defended while we were campaigning abroad with her main armies. Unfortunatly an undersized legion means a weak legion, so I made sure extra skirmishers were recruited to bring up numbers for a smaller cost and less damage to Rome's economy. By all means disband the extra cavalry, if the senate is really against them, reduce the size of the skirmishing force if the senate feels it necessary but do not bleed Rome dry in her name!

  11. #191
    AspisPhalanx90's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Consulate of Septimus and Poplicola - 540AVC

    Gaius Julius Septimus entered the Curia..he could hear the arguing and yells from outside the doors, and began to speak

    Senators, if i may...

    Might i suggest amending your proposal Valerius, to bring the number of cohorts down to 8, and the number of triarii down to 2. With a smaller number, we can afford to hire more auxillaries, such as slingers and archers, which will undoubtably come into good use in later campaigns. In fact, i insist we use slingers in all of our legions, as they have the ability to completely decimate the opposing lines and cavalry before even joining battle.

    Septimus grinned as he spoke, looking to the rest of the chamber as he finished

    ...and they are quite cheap....
    Flavius Julius Constantinus, adopted Patrician, 30

  12. #192

    Default Re: Consulate of Septimus and Poplicola - 540AVC

    Auxiliaries that are both undisciplined and politically unreliable. Nothing has beaten our legions yet, you saw how effective the new combination is, if it isn't broken then there is no point in fixing it. I will not have others do our dirty work, what you suggest is to make our armies akin to the Punics. Their armies are filled with such mercenaries and look at what happened to them. Pure Roman steel and that of her allies in the form of our cohorts and heavy infantry won those battles.

    Not to mention that mercenaries expect much in the form of pay whenever we choose to take a settlement and are therefore detrimental to our war efforts. Mercenaries should only be used on a case-by-case basis for whatever we need them for, not a main effort.

    I would also like to remind you that those slingers you speak of break whenever cavalry look at them, even ours. The great Balearic slingers Hannibal brought with him did nothing to our soldiers and I ran them off the field with little effort.

    It would seem that many men in this chamber know not of our tactics and more importantly what wins wars. I have never seen cavalry lay siege to a fortress, nor have I seen light troops able to force their way through a breach. We must have combined-arms but the heavy infantry are our core, anyone who says that slingers are cheaper for the same effectiveness knows nothing of war and nothing of the economic base for their accusations.

    So no Spurius, I doubt your bill will garner any support and no Septimus, I am against your amendment on the grounds that it will make our armies no more effective or less costly than they are now. Perhaps the both of you also forget the mutilated body of Hannibal, that was done by Roman pilum, a weapon we do not trust to our velites because they have not the armor to survive to throw them nor do they have the money to afford one if they could.

    I won every major engagement with my infantry, Genoa without anything but a small amount of cavalry intervention beaten back by archers of all things. Until my method is proven wrong neither of you have a base in experience to tell this august body anything different.
    Last edited by dragoon47; February 06, 2011 at 09:43 PM.
    Lucius Valerius Poplicola - Patrician - 34






  13. #193

    Default Re: Consulate of Septimus and Poplicola - 540AVC

    I propose a better solution.

    Pallas stood from his chair. He was more gaunt than before and seemed a ghost of a man. His skin was even paler than last anyone saw. He might as well be transparent for all that mattered.

    The notion that the poor will fight our wars is foolish at best. They have no land to furnish them with an income, no means of truly arming themselves. And as Scaurus so adamantly points at the relinquishment of citizenship for Ariminum and Valerius so adamant on keeping to his legion arrangement, I believe I have a perfect middle ground.

    What do we aim to derive from all of these squabbles? Why are we truly debating the merits of Ariminum? Ah yes, because Ariminum's citizenship was granted through an illegal motion. This can be easily remedied by simply depriving them of citizenship and forcing them back to their status of allied state. But that would be counter-productive. I say we come up with a better alternative. We make the citizens of Ariminum second-class citizens. They're not true Romans, they are Italians, who are subservient to us in every way. We simply deprive them of all means of true representation during elections. The entire city of Ariminum will be a single voting tribe at the Assembly compared to the thirty-five Roman tribes. They will never win a single election despite their status as citizens.

    And because their citizenship was granted to them through an illegal means, they must recompense for it with their children. All male children of Ariminum who are of six years of age are to be taken to the barracks and raised as soldiers. Now obviously we will run into certain oppositions. Thus we should begin the necessary process of constructing a mustering field equivalent to our Campus Martius (ooc: requires army supply rations, Roman oppidum - provincial, mineral import, weapons import, military region) and initiate proper indoctrination of the children so that when they reach adulthood, they will know nothing but war, nothing but Roman arms, and nothing but their status as second-class citizens, little better than a freedman.

    It is a perfect solution. They will have the vote, but their vote will be meaningless. They will have citizenship, but be deprived of all citizenship rights. Not a single drop of blood will be spilled, yet Ariminum will produce some of the finest soldiers Rome has ever seen. Not only that, but soldiers who will march into war without question, soldiers who will know only war. In short, Conscript Fathers, I intend to turn Ariminum into a Roman Sparta. Not the Sparta that is a shadow of her former self, but Sparta when her name was feared. So I propose this motion:

    Senatus Consultum de Civitate Arimini

    I. Citizens of Ariminum will be relegated as second-class, with the entire city's population counting as only one tribe in the Assembly and the status of their grain distribution as well as attaining any other rights of Roman-born citizens being put before the Assembly for vote
    II. All available efforts will be put forth into the construction of a Campus Martius in Ariminum
    III. All male children between the age of six and eight are to be taken away from their homes and indoctrinated in the view that Ariminum citizens are second-class citizens and taught the art of war.

    What say you, Senators? This will be a bloodless deprivation of citizenship. Our military power will become unquestionable after Ariminum becomes a fortress. And of course, I expect you to have a good reason for defending the people of Ariminum, who received their citizenship illegally.



    ooc: btw guys, this isnt post-Marius reforms. All of the Roman AND allied troops now had to submit to the property requirements or he wasn't even going to be considered for recruitment.
    Last edited by chaplain118; February 06, 2011 at 10:08 PM.

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  14. #194
    drecie14's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Consulate of Septimus and Poplicola - 540AVC

    Titus stood up and nodded at Pallas.

    "I agree. This is a solution. I fully support it."

    He looked around and addressed the other Senators.

    "There is no other way. If any of you figure out another solution, a better solution, please come forth."
    Last edited by drecie14; February 07, 2011 at 04:46 AM.
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  15. #195
    Maiar93's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Consulate of Septimus and Poplicola - 540AVC

    Flavius wants to say his word...
    Senators, it is agreed then! There is no other way that comforts both sides at least in some manner. We may call this a compromise, and a good one! I thank Pallas personally and wish that his proposition gets through.
    Flavius sits down, with a mysterious smile of victory on his face.. what would it mean? Then Flavius subtly removes the smile from his face, thinking 'I hope nobody saw that..'
    Last edited by Maiar93; February 07, 2011 at 12:01 PM.
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  16. #196

    Default Re: Consulate of Septimus and Poplicola - 540AVC

    This Pallas is a clever man mediating between both sides

    I agree with Aventinus's motion, It is sound and a good compromise, May I also add that we do not put the people of Ariminium in the same centuries, disperse them so they cannot gather.
    Caius Valerius Messala
    Patrician

  17. #197

    Default Re: Consulate of Septimus and Poplicola - 540AVC

    Sextus then stands, and in a loud voice, says TO THE POLES he then sprinted out of the room, partly because he has to pee
    Last edited by Royal_McKeogh; February 08, 2011 at 08:29 PM.

  18. #198

    Default Re: Consulate of Septimus and Poplicola - 540AVC

    OOC: Maybe that is unnecessary?

    Gotenus walked into the Curia, sidestepping a running senator. He read the scribe's report, eyebrows raising at some points and furrowing at others.

    I see you wise men have had a time in determining matters concerning false citizenship. I have sent the construction orders for the men in Illyria, all loyal to Rome now, assuming taxes are not raised to an uncomfortable level. With my administration they should be out of the red in approximately a year and a half.

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