Are the Cumans really worth playing with?

[Zenith_Zenith]

I really do believe Kievan Rus and Republic of Novgorod should be merged. After all, I think that the Republic of Novgorod did not even begin to exist in 1100. Anyway, if "Republic of Novgorod" is 'recycled' there would be one single russian faction, a free faction slot, and a bit of improvement for the Kievan Rus. Even if you give only one settlement from the Republic of Novgorod to the Kievan Rus (and recycle the Republic of Novgorod) that should be fine (i.e. you won't harden the life of the cumans or lithuanians or teutons).

[Zenith_Zenith]

Until the Mongols appear.

unless I am wrong, the bekh druzhina is the strongest mounted archer of the game and the dismounted bekh druzhina is the strongest foot archer of the game (at least in SS6.4).

So these should be the advantages of mongols over the cumans:
- better start position;
- a greater variety of strong units;
- better melee infantry.

But in rest, if you start the early era with the cumans I think they would be strong enough to face the mongols when they appear.
However, if you start the late era, playing with the cumans should be hard indeed: strong western armies, surrounded by all other religions who send their bishops/imams/cardinals to you and the strong mongols comming towards you.

Anyway, there are some great advantages if you play with cumans and a mongol army attacks a settlement of yours (that has at least a stone wall), if you don't get out to fight them:
- strong foot archers on the walls - and archers are very, very good against light units.
- strong spearmen (Dismounted Khagan Druzhina, dismounted tartar lancers, while Kasogi senior milita are many - so good as well)
- the foot archers on the walls are good enough in melee, so, if you have enough of them, no enemy unit can stay much on the wall.

I've never defended a cuman settlement against the mongols, but I'd like to get the chance to see. Though I'm not pretty sure what to do when the enemy brings siege towers and battering ram: should I leave my archers to fire normally or to command them to use fire?

[Ichon]

I usually shoot normally as its quite rare to set towers alight but the angle when they approach is good for shots on the units pushing from the walls. It can be quite difficult to defend the walls of the eastern Cuman cities when Mongols appear. Under siege 20 turns in a row... or more and sending reinforcements gets swarmed by 3-4 Mongol armies. I just held at cities as long as possible but using the bridges(because can reinforce bridge army) and having strong HA in the late campaign to gain regions to the east were my best strategies. Its not too hard to wear down Mongols with early campaign start but in late campaign I was forced to migrate nearly to the Baltic before Mongols slowed down.

[k/t]

My comment was a response only to the last sentence of your post.

I'm playing the Cumans now and it's going well so far. 9-12 horsearchers can take down a Novgorod or Kiev army with only a few casualties (and some of those are friendly fire). I don't know how much of a hassle the Mongols will be, since I hardly ever see them going north of their spawn point.

[Caesar Clivus]

I really do believe Kievan Rus and Republic of Novgorod should be merged. After all, I think that the Republic of Novgorod did not even begin to exist in 1100.

The independence of Novgorod from Kiev started before what is considered the formal break in 1136. The powers of the Knyaz (appointed by Kiev pre-1136) were severely curtailed before they kicked him out in 1136.

Kievan Rus was never a uniform state like other factions in the game. It was a coalition of principalities that had Kiev as the chief principality. Some principalities (such as Periaslavl and Chernigov) were under the direct control of the Grand Prince of Kiev. Others (such as Novgorod, Polotsk and Vladimir) became more and more independent of Kiev. If anything there should be more Rus factions not less.

[Zenith_Zenith]

I usually shoot normally as its quite rare to set towers alight but the angle when they approach is good for shots on the units pushing from the walls. It can be quite difficult to defend the walls of the eastern Cuman cities when Mongols appear. Under siege 20 turns in a row... or more and sending reinforcements gets swarmed by 3-4 Mongol armies. I just held at cities as long as possible but using the bridges(because can reinforce bridge army) and having strong HA in the late campaign to gain regions to the east were my best strategies. Its not too hard to wear down Mongols with early campaign start but in late campaign I was forced to migrate nearly to the Baltic before Mongols slowed down.

I don't understand pretty well... do the mongols wait until your army gets out to fight? or they simply come with siege towers, battering rams and trebuchets?

[Zenith_Zenith]

The independence of Novgorod from Kiev started before what is considered the formal break in 1136. The powers of the Knyaz (appointed by Kiev pre-1136) were severely curtailed before they kicked him out in 1136.

Kievan Rus was never a uniform state like other factions in the game. It was a coalition of principalities that had Kiev as the chief principality. Some principalities (such as Periaslavl and Chernigov) were under the direct control of the Grand Prince of Kiev. Others (such as Novgorod, Polotsk and Vladimir) became more and more independent of Kiev. If anything there should be more Rus factions not less.

do not the kievan rus and republic of novgorod resemble too much?

[Caesar Clivus]

do not the kievan rus and republic of novgorod resemble too much?

No.

[newt]

do not the kievan rus and republic of novgorod resemble too much?

The same an be said for Fatimids and Moors, and the Italian factions

[Zenith_Zenith]

perhaps I was wrong. throwing out the republic of Novgorod would cause a lot of independent settlements. And this is boring in the first many years, for cumans for instance, because you have to take out the rebel settlements first, and only after start conquering a faction. So it would be better to have less independent settlements.

[billydilly]

I think the cumans are great, both to play and to play against. I'm playing as Novgorod and the Cumans are really agressive on my eastern border. I've been forced to send all available forces eastwards, leaving my western border rather weak.

[Polycarpe]

The same an be said for Fatimids and Moors, and the Italian factions

Especially the Italians.

[Ichon]

I don't understand pretty well... do the mongols wait until your army gets out to fight? or they simply come with siege towers, battering rams and trebuchets?

Well to defeat Mongols in Russia it takes more than just defending at settlements. In Persia its easier due to more chokepoints but bridges and a few key cities can hold Mongols in Russia fairly well. Just not so well at Cumans starting positions in the east.

Cumans can load city walls with archers and defend against numerous Mongol sieges but eventually combination of losses due to siege starvation over many turns and the battles will likely lose you some cities even on early era campaign. On late its guaranteed.

[Yukon Jon]

This is going to blow everyone away when I say this (yep this thread is super old but I still play) the Cumans have the best unit in the game. Yep. You heard that. The Dismounted Bekh Druzhina is the single best unit in game. I have tested them 1v1 vs all the elite Infantry in the game and they beat them all, because of the arrows. Most units dont even get a chance to engage. They have exceptional range, their fire rate is the fastest among archers, their missles hit for 6 damage which is strong, they can lay stakes to protect from cav. By the time any infantry reaches them, if they even do they have 6 attack and 16 defense which is no joke, since they dont wear heavy armor they are pretty mobile and that 16 defense comes from a shield and defenive skill. I highly recommend you try them. If you can get an army together of mainly Dis. Bekh, you will be blown away by how good they are.

[Jurand of Cracow]

In the SSHIP, the Cumans will get some updates to make them more distinct from the other factions.

[Just let me post]

In the SSHIP, the Cumans will get some updates to make them more distinct from the other factions.

That, and their own unique music too

[k/t]

Damn, I vaguely remember this thread.

[Sarkiss]

gave a quick try to Cumans in 6.4 and they need some love, i.e more distinct portraits for FMs, appropriate audio tracks for armies and agents, perhaps revamped starting position? faction largely looks like an underdeveloped placeholder, though i do love their unit cards.

[LuckyPistol]

Cumans are pretty fun if you need to spice up your gameplay. The horse archers make the game pretty laid back until the Mongols show up and go "I'm you but better".

[Steward Denethor II]

I remember many, many years ago I read a great AAR story with the Cumans. It is one of the best ever made for Medieval 2.

[SS 6.3 AAR] Pagan Vengeance **Complete!** (twcenter.net)