Consulate of Poplicola and Scaeva - 539AUC

[AspisPhalanx90]

Censor, while i completely agree more soldiers are needed, i suggest raising a half-legion, while diverting the remaining funds to those cities that need them most, such as those in Sicily. However, i am not the Quaestor, and i do not know how much funds it would take to raise a whole legion. If it can be done, let it be written...if it shall be written...let it be done

[Ozy]

According to the report at the start of the term, we have a projected income for the year of 24,000 denarii. That should be more than enough to begin recruitment and conscription of the necessary forces. If the senate allows me, I could take care of the logistics and recruitment process to have the legion ready in the shortest time possible.

[dacder]

"May I ask why abandoning spain has not been considered?"

[chaplain118]

Perhaps you would like to propose a better alternative to maintaining our foothold in Spain?

ooc: dacder, put your character name in your sig. Its impossible for us to tell who you are.

[Ozy]

Abandon Spain? Have you lost your mind? Many men bled and died for Rome in that wild land. Many of our colonists have begun to build a life there. To abandon our hard earned province is nothing but an insult to their memories and their sacrifice for our city!

[dacder]

"If you men didnt notice Itly itself is under threat.Rather than pull more Roman citizens from there farms we should use the soilders involved in the spanish campaign to defend Italy.This or we should lower the taxes on the roman citizens due to our increased revenue from spain."

[chaplain118]

You have always struck me as a man with a fatal lack of awareness, first having entered within my home accusing Caelius Caldus of electoral bribery when in so much you had none of the facts, but now even after Poplicola himself have secured both southern and northern borders of the Republic. And with Scaurus' report on the state of Spain, I am at a loss as to why you would suggest a retreat from Spain when a general advance should be proposed. Most of our soldiers currently in the field comes from our allies, not from our own citizens. If anyone should complain, it should be the allies. But that is not so.

In addition, Scaurus' report from Spain suggest nothing of increased revenues. In fact, the profits from Spain are so far so few and so paltry that I fear we are losing money rather than gaining. Of course, such is the price we must pay to gain a further ally, something to threaten the enemy with even across the ocean. This is something that Rome and her citizens need. So I will ask you once again to iterate the reason why you believe we must retreat from Spain, and please Senator, add some more strength to your argument than mere baseless assumptions.

[Junius]

Agrippa turned to Minius

Rome has never fled. In the past we may have been defeated in battle but our resolve sees us through even the toughest of times and onto victory. It is the quality that has set us apart from all other peoples. We do not give up, we do not give in. And we shall not give in now. To propose that, to effectively hand back Hispania to the Carthaginians is ludicrous. You say yourself that the province is rich; why should we hand over those riches to our enemies? Such sentiments such never have entered a true Roman mind, let alone be given voice in these ranks. Hispania is a rich and important province, and we shall not flee from it. Roman blood has watered the soils of Iberia and that makes it Roman. Wherever Romans die, wherever Romans are buried, it is our land, we have fought for it. We do not surrender, we do not flee. We are Romans.

The Senator remains calm as he delivers his angry words. He doesn't grow angry, and delivers all in a commanding tone. Now he addressed the Senate as a whole.

However, the Senator raises the question of taxation. I would disagree with his proposal to cut taxes right now. We are still at war and Italia is still threatened. What would our citizens rather have, a few extra denarii in their pockets, but with a Carthaginian overlord or freedom? I say freedom. When war is over and land is won we can cut taxes. But to imperil the state further with such empty demagoguery should not be countenanced by the Senate.

The Censor sits, glaring at Minius daring him to speak again.

[dacder]

"Im not saying we should but am rather asking why it is never considered?And what of the spanish mines?On the taxes are we not getting great revenue currently?Enough to raise an entire legion but not enough to make life slightly easier for the plebians?If that is so I do wonder where that money is going...."

[chaplain118]

We have no mines operating in Hispania. Our foothold there has barely been established, and even then it is merely within the north eastern portion, where access to the rich silver mines are still out of our grasp. To get to those mines, we must push further into Spain, to where the Carthaginians have secured their positions.

As for your question of why we have never considered abandoning Spain, perhaps this fact will tell you: our current holdings in Spain amount to Sagunton and Emporiae along with their surrounding countryside. The Carthaginians have solidly entrenched themselves across the river west of Sangunton. If we are to surrender Sangunton and Emporiae, the Carthaginians would have a solid line stretching from the west coast of Spain to the Greek city of Massilia. That would make Massilia the only free nation standing between the Carthaginian threat and their current base camp in Italy. We abandon Spain, and we abandon the hopes for a secure northern border. We abandon that hope, and we abandon Rome.

Take care, Senator, what you suggest, what you dare us to entertain borderlines on treason. I may love the Plebs and care for their well-being, but I will not let the words of a single treasonous Pleb be the downfall of Rome. I would not hesitate to drag you into court, hang you up by your entrails and parade your corpse around the City to the very people whose bloodlust has not been filled. And I would do it with them cheering my name. Does that adequately answer your question?

[AspisPhalanx90]

Abandoning Spain is ludicrous. I would rather join with the legions left there and die while taking as many Punic dogs as possible with me then to just abandon it to an enemy who is bent on destroying us. We let them take it, what then? As the Praetor has said, they would control the entire eastern coast of Iberia, with nothing but Massalia to stop them from linking up with forces in Italy. We would have no safe ports to land our legions. Iberia would become more of a deathtrap then it already is.

The abandonment of Iberian holdings should not be brought up in this hall without COMPELLING tactical and strategic reasoning. Let us not speak of this again until then...

[dragoon47]

Let us not forget that Tyrant in Greece who could tear our alliance with Massilia apart, then they would only need access to march through their lands to destroy us.

Lucius pondered for a few moments, something he seemed to be doing at ever-increasing lengths as of late. His next words were akin to a stage mutter.

We cannot abandon Greece. We don't need another puppet king deciding to remake the glorious history of Pyrrhus and re-instating the Kingdom of Epeiros as a power in the region. The last thing we'd need is yet another Greek kingdom in Illyria to stop us from being involved in the Peloponnisos. The abandonment of Dyrrhachium would also be a political statement to the Greek city-states that we are never going to help them, which would allow Syracuse to attack us, then leading to a possible alliance with Carthage which Macedon as we have seen is already considering. We'd have half the Hellenistic world at our throats just to save money? No, we're keeping a presence there, if the garrison is slaughtered it will do nothing but strengthen our alliance with the Greeks, gods know they love a good last stand eh?

Spain is troublesome but we must not abandon it either, to do so would go against our campaign in Italy, for now we must have true strength in Italy for the attack on Genoa and the illusion on strength in Spain in order to get Carthage to believe they are being pressed on all fronts which will lead them to consider peace which would be proposed most likely after they lose their mines in Spain. It would also close their trade routes through the Pillars.

Lucius then raised his voice back to normal.

It's decided then.

A few senators looked up at the consul, many of them with clueless looks on their face, Lucius oblivious as to why for several moments.

Well? There's no other choice is there?

The awkward silence continued. Lucius put a hand over his face and stood up.

I would have thought it had been obvious. The reinforcing legions will take the Baleares. We will station the new ships that have been proposed there to protect Sardinia and Corsica from attack and to transport the legions into Spain as a part of a two-pronged attack on Cathargo Nova. The current legions in Spain will be but a distraction until reinforcements arrive.

They have no idea how many troops we have in Spain, especially since the recruitment of mercenary troops. They will KNOW how many reinforcements will be arriving. This will insert a number in their minds that they might view as insurmountable and may lead to the evacuation of Spain by whatever Punic soldiers are left. We may also have to make a temporary alliance with the local tribes just to ensure that the Punics are driven out completely from the Western coast.

What says this senate?

[Tazgrent]

Gracious Senate,
I write from the humble residence of the Propraetor of Sardinia et Corsica. I wish to inform the Senate of my doings. I have ordered that a plebiscite be held on both islands for them to begin the process of choosing whether to be annexed into the Republic or become an allied State, rather than being a protectorate stuck in limbo. The process will naturally be controlled by my people to ensure the outcome is in the best interest of the Republic, but we do what we must to ensure the tranquility of our lands. The vote, as it were, should conclude within six months. The natives of interior Sardinia are notorious in their attempts at resisting contact, and I may simply exclude them, though they are by law provincials. As an aside, my ears in the city have told me of troop shortages. I offer a suggestion. My garrisons are severely over strength for a secure and out of the way province like my own. Perhaps these troops (several cohorts of allied troops, if I am not mistaken) could be put to better use afield? I leave it up to the wisdom of the esteemed fathers. Keep in mind I cannot supply the ships for such an operation; my Imperium ends at Neptune's domain. With that, my update on the status of my province is at an end. May the blessings of Jupiter, Juno, and Minerva bless you, resolute Senate of Rome.

Regards,
Gaius Cassius Caudex, Propraetor of Sardinia et Corsica

[Ozy]

We could have thousands of thousands of men and still the Carthaginians would defend the territory. They are not in such a weak state as to surrender unconditionally. Why? Because retrating from Iberia would eliminate their main source of gold, silver, and men for their armies. To lose Iberia is to lose the war, and that's why we must send all the possible troops to defeat them at once!

[chaplain118]

Then it is settled. We must counter the enemy on every front, at every battle. Not an inch of ground must be given. Retreat in battle must be followed by a victorious campaign. Perhaps a new military code must be drawn up, so that the soldiers recognize the gravity of the situation and know of the consequence should they fail?

[AspisPhalanx90]

The Isles are most likely lightly fortified...Perhaps if someone takes a half legion to the Isles, not far behind an armada shall follow, say two legions strong? ready to land and take Carthago Nova from behind their backs. Of course, none of this should be taken without proper scouting.

[chaplain118]

Word must be sent to Scaurus then, if we are to go through with such an undertaking. He is in a prime position to create a basic flotilla and use it to spy upon the Punic positions, what occurs beyond that is entirely in the hands of the gods

[chaplain118]

A dispatch arrives from Hispania

Conscript Fathers,

The situation in Spain, or at least in the areas that we currently control, is far too weak to support any measured help for the campaign that you have planned save for providing ships for the reconnaissance mission. The people are still not yet considered allies of the Republic, and as such, they have not been allowed to take up arms or be formed in a militia. Unfortunately, it will take almost two years for such an endeavor to come to fruition, by which I feel the war would already have been advanced so far that Sagunton and Emporiae become mere notes in the pages of history rather than important turning points. Rest assured that I would still provide you with the ships that the Consul has asked of me.

In anticipation of the coming portents.
L. Aemilius Scaurus

[dragoon47]

I do not agree that we need more skirmishers my fellow consul, in fact, the extra space in our order of battle is to be filled by mercenaries when needed and to be disbanded at the end of each campaign. The mercenaries will most likely be cavalry of a striking nature, our allied legions will have the cavalry of Campania in their order of battle as they will most likely not need much else from their performance against the Latin League which was exemplary.

In other news, the Cimbri have decided they are a bit far away from us and have ceased all incursions across the alps as well. Maybe the tribes of the North are interested in fighting each other now? Still, we must remain on our guard for tribes that do not agree with their petty kings and may become insurgents.

The progress in the formation of the Roman legion will be in place in time for the assault on the Baleares, the allied legion is what I will be using in the Genoan campaign. I propose that my co-consul will take command of them when I am finished and we'd both be departing for the Baleares to end the Iberian campaign with a swift stroke at Cathargo Nova.

According to our proconsul there is progress in Spain, I hope he will finish his integration of the Northern provinces into Rome as clients before our arrival. I am going to assume those are elementary numbers should worst come to worst for optimism's sake, he may yet join us on our campaign.

[dacder]

"Again I simply wondered why it has never been considered a possibility by the senate not that we should abandon it.Anyway I think a military code is out of the question.If a battle is lost rather than hopelessly fighting our men should retreat to fight another day.*He then looks at the praetor*
"And praetor that is rather violent talk for such a simple question...I wonder why that is?"