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Thread: [1618] - Thirty Years' War IH

  1. #101

    Default Re: [1618] - Thirty Years' War IH

    I have a few questions and suggestions...

    Regarding Bohemia, I notice it is not on the Religion chart and should be about 65-70% Protestant (Lutheran/Hussite/Utraquist) 30-35% Catholic.

    Regarding military, is the recruitment cost "unit cost + quality cost"? I.E., Regular Pikeman cost 6% (2% for Pikeman, 4% for "Regular" status, -50% = 3% upkeep)? And what are the "Conscript" and "Line Infantry" units meant to represent? Musketeers?

    In the era, infantry were either Pikeman - heavy infantry, impervious to cavalry charges, and usually armoured - or Musketeers - medium or light infantry, generally unarmoured, equipped with a heavy matchlock musket and a rest - and the two never fought separately.

    It is appropriate for them to be available as separate units for recruitment, even though they would fight together, because the ratio of Pike:Shot varied greatly depending on budget and availability (Pikes are cheaper than guns), tactical preference (Catholic armies mostly used the Spanish Tercio formation, which used equal pikes and guns, ideally, while the Protestants mostly used the Dutch Regiment formation, which used 1:2 pike/shot ratio, ideally - both formations would use more or less shot based on availability), and on the technological advancement of weapons over the period - as guns became lighter, cheaper, stronger and longer ranged, the musket increased in popularity versus the pike and its proportion in formations increased accordingly, to about 1 pikeman for every 3 or 4 musketeers by the end of the war in 1648.

    This was the Western European method of battle - slow-moving Infantry blocks, largely impervious to cavalry (unless they broke) but difficult to maneuver having it out against each other while cavalry skirmished on the wings (whichever side's cavalry won the cavalry battle would usually chase off the defeated cavalry then, ideally, flank the infantry or chase off the artillery, though often they would just loot the enemy's baggage train).

    Eastern Armies were very slow to adopt the Western model of war-fighting. The armies of the Poles, Turks, Russians and Transylvanians/Hungarians were all built around cavalry. Heavy cavalry - Winged Lancers, Kapikulu Sipahis, etc. - as the elite force, and light cavalry as the bulk of the force. Infantry were generally just musketeers who would dig in on the battlefield to hold a position, defend the baggage and artillery, or attack or defend forts, cities and castles in sieges. In a Western force, cavalry would make up 15-25% of a force. In an eastern army, infantry might be 15-25% of the force. Even crack foot troops, like Janissaries or Streletsy, would still mostly or only use muskets, not pikes, and rarely fight in Western infantry blocks

    Two examples of these armies meeting each other in battle would be the wars between Sweden and Poland which ended around the late 1620s, where a conventional Western force of mostly slow-moving infantry blocks met a conventional Eastern force of mostly highly mobile, but brittle, cavalry and the result was a stalemate. The Poles could not defeat the Swedes in a conventional battle, and the Swedish army was too slow to catch the Poles.

    Bethlen Gabor's force consisted of 15,000 Transylvanian and Hungarian light cavalry when he invaded Austria and besieged Vienna, but even though they outnumbered the defenders, they could not properly siege the city, nor could they defend their siege positions from outside relief forces because they were just too lightly equipped and arm.

    So, with all that in mind, what are "Line Infantry" and "Conscripts" intended to represent?




    "That war is a terrible thing I agree, but it is not so terrible that we should submit to anything in order to avoid it. For why do we all vaunt our civic equality and liberty of speech and all that we mean by the word freedom, if nothing is more advantageous than peace?" — Polybios, Historiai, IV.31

  2. #102

    Default Re: [1618] - Thirty Years' War IH

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang von Zweibrücken View Post
    I have a few questions and suggestions...

    Regarding Bohemia, I notice it is not on the Religion chart and should be about 65-70% Protestant (Lutheran/Hussite/Utraquist) 30-35% Catholic.

    Regarding military, is the recruitment cost "unit cost + quality cost"? I.E., Regular Pikeman cost 6% (2% for Pikeman, 4% for "Regular" status, -50% = 3% upkeep)? And what are the "Conscript" and "Line Infantry" units meant to represent? Musketeers?

    In the era, infantry were either Pikeman - heavy infantry, impervious to cavalry charges, and usually armoured - or Musketeers - medium or light infantry, generally unarmoured, equipped with a heavy matchlock musket and a rest - and the two never fought separately.

    It is appropriate for them to be available as separate units for recruitment, even though they would fight together, because the ratio of Pike:Shot varied greatly depending on budget and availability (Pikes are cheaper than guns), tactical preference (Catholic armies mostly used the Spanish Tercio formation, which used equal pikes and guns, ideally, while the Protestants mostly used the Dutch Regiment formation, which used 1:2 pike/shot ratio, ideally - both formations would use more or less shot based on availability), and on the technological advancement of weapons over the period - as guns became lighter, cheaper, stronger and longer ranged, the musket increased in popularity versus the pike and its proportion in formations increased accordingly, to about 1 pikeman for every 3 or 4 musketeers by the end of the war in 1648.

    This was the Western European method of battle - slow-moving Infantry blocks, largely impervious to cavalry (unless they broke) but difficult to maneuver having it out against each other while cavalry skirmished on the wings (whichever side's cavalry won the cavalry battle would usually chase off the defeated cavalry then, ideally, flank the infantry or chase off the artillery, though often they would just loot the enemy's baggage train).

    Eastern Armies were very slow to adopt the Western model of war-fighting. The armies of the Poles, Turks, Russians and Transylvanians/Hungarians were all built around cavalry. Heavy cavalry - Winged Lancers, Kapikulu Sipahis, etc. - as the elite force, and light cavalry as the bulk of the force. Infantry were generally just musketeers who would dig in on the battlefield to hold a position, defend the baggage and artillery, or attack or defend forts, cities and castles in sieges. In a Western force, cavalry would make up 15-25% of a force. In an eastern army, infantry might be 15-25% of the force. Even crack foot troops, like Janissaries or Streletsy, would still mostly or only use muskets, not pikes, and rarely fight in Western infantry blocks

    Two examples of these armies meeting each other in battle would be the wars between Sweden and Poland which ended around the late 1620s, where a conventional Western force of mostly slow-moving infantry blocks met a conventional Eastern force of mostly highly mobile, but brittle, cavalry and the result was a stalemate. The Poles could not defeat the Swedes in a conventional battle, and the Swedish army was too slow to catch the Poles.

    Bethlen Gabor's force consisted of 15,000 Transylvanian and Hungarian light cavalry when he invaded Austria and besieged Vienna, but even though they outnumbered the defenders, they could not properly siege the city, nor could they defend their siege positions from outside relief forces because they were just too lightly equipped and arm.

    So, with all that in mind, what are "Line Infantry" and "Conscripts" intended to represent?
    Line Infantry are musketeers and Conscripts are average civilians that are being forced into battle with little combat experience.

  3. #103
    Dan the Man's Avatar S A M U R A I F O O L
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    Default Re: [1618] - Thirty Years' War IH

    Is anybody besides me still missing orders?
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  4. #104
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    Default Re: [1618] - Thirty Years' War IH

    No, Im missing orders, and a faction page, Im really busy

  5. #105

    Default Re: [1618] - Thirty Years' War IH

    Quote Originally Posted by Epic ² View Post
    Line Infantry are musketeers and Conscripts are average civilians that are being forced into battle with little combat experience.
    Ok thanks, I can put my nation's army together with that. Are the conscripts armed with muskets or pikes or just improvised weapons?

    Was I right that regular Pikemen (for example) cost 6%? 4% for pikeman, plus 2% for "regular" quality?
    Last edited by Wolfgang von Zweibrücken; January 14, 2011 at 10:53 PM.




    "That war is a terrible thing I agree, but it is not so terrible that we should submit to anything in order to avoid it. For why do we all vaunt our civic equality and liberty of speech and all that we mean by the word freedom, if nothing is more advantageous than peace?" — Polybios, Historiai, IV.31

  6. #106

    Default Re: [1618] - Thirty Years' War IH

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang von Zweibrücken View Post
    Ok thanks, I can put my nation's army together with that. Are the conscripts armed with muskets or pikes or just improvised weapons?

    Was I right that regular Pikemen (for example) cost 6%? 4% for pikeman, plus 2% for "regular" quality?
    Conscripts are usually just a mixture of anything they can get their hands on.

    And yes, they are 6%.

  7. #107
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    Default Re: [1618] - Thirty Years' War IH

    I will give rep to anyone who will make me a faction page and PM it to me

  8. #108
    Dan the Man's Avatar S A M U R A I F O O L
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    Default Re: [1618] - Thirty Years' War IH

    Can do.
    Edit: Later, chores have arisen. :/
    Last edited by Dan the Man; January 15, 2011 at 01:18 PM.
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  9. #109
    'Gunny's Avatar Überrock über alles
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    Default Re: [1618] - Thirty Years' War IH

    ugh, horrible afflictions, I hope you get ovre it soon

  10. #110

    Default Re: [1618] - Thirty Years' War IH

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang von Zweibrücken View Post
    If Epic decides to make it Prussia+Brandenburg, you can use my Diplomacy thread from about a year ago as a resource for important people, population, military size etc. : The Margraviate of Brandenburg
    You can use this one for the most part...

    Just plug in your "Economy %" and put down the military as, say, 7,000 militia pike and 8,000 militia "Line Infantry", plus 1,500 militia Heavy Cavalry.

    The military system is a bit difficult to work with while being historically accurate because countries didn't really have standing peacetime armies. They would just recruit troops when they needed them, and disband them when they didn't, except for a handful of household troops and bodyguards to man castles and see off bandits and what have you. They would stockpile weapons to arm troops when they needed them, however, which enabled speedier recruitment.

    So, since the Rhineland was able to recruit 20,000 men in about 3 months to try and fight off the Spanish invasion in the early 1620s, I put myself down for 20,000 troops, of a realistic mix of unit-types. My faction was supporting about 60,000 German, Dutch, English and Bohemian troops across three armies and several garrisons at the peak of it's role in the war, however, although it didn't have to pay to arm most of them, and the English contingent (maybe 5-7,000 total) were recruited with and paid by private donations collected in England.

    Unfortunately, this was up against maybe 60,000 Spanish, Bavarians and Imperial troops - each. Plus another 20,000 Saxons, although they didn't do much other than occupy Silesia and Lusatia, and protect their own borders.

    Anyway, while I estimated my own faction's army, the figures for Brandenburg are fairly accurate - gathered from "The Thirty Years War" by Peter H. Wilson.
    Last edited by Wolfgang von Zweibrücken; January 15, 2011 at 05:17 PM.




    "That war is a terrible thing I agree, but it is not so terrible that we should submit to anything in order to avoid it. For why do we all vaunt our civic equality and liberty of speech and all that we mean by the word freedom, if nothing is more advantageous than peace?" — Polybios, Historiai, IV.31

  11. #111
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    Default Re: [1618] - Thirty Years' War IH

    Yeah...use his, Gunny, it's way better than anything I could do.
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  12. #112
    'Gunny's Avatar Überrock über alles
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    Default Re: [1618] - Thirty Years' War IH

    Oooh, thank you kindly for having made that last year

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