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Thread: Bill IV - Poll Banning Bill

  1. #1

    Default Bill IV - Poll Banning Bill

    i have no problems with surveys to find out how many people have read the syntagma, or howmany civitates are active within periods, though this information can still be misleading,

    but i do not want to see any more opinion polling in the curia, and the current three posted closed.

    these are a pointless useless waste of civitates time, they divide discussion, and in many cases just give people opportunities to bump posted counts with "voted X"

    the statisitcs devolved from these polls are dubious in themselves, especially as many civitates will vote without knowing the discussion behind the poll, and i do not want to see these sort of stats being a driving force behind any legislation on this site.

    if people have an opinion on an issue, they come and post it. thats what the prothalamus is for. we shouldn't be going out asking for people to give an opinion, because thats forcing them to do something they don;t want to do.
    every civitate has the option of debating in the curia, a vote does not show the debate. and a bill should not be passed on statisitics but on debate
    Last edited by the Black Prince; January 12, 2006 at 01:47 PM.

  2. #2

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    I will let the pro-curator to deal with this issue, as soon as we have one.

  3. #3

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    if people have an opinion on an issue, they come and post it.
    Sometimes Civitates have opinions on certain subjects, but that opinion has already been stated by other person, and hence they see no need to post in a thread. 90% of the time that is my case hehe
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    Fabolous's Avatar Power breeds Arrogance
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    I spent a good 10 minutes of my life trying to decide on whether to post an opinion poll on whether we should stop posting opinion polls.

    I don't like them, we have the prom to discuss issues before they go to vote. We don't need pre-polls on issues and stuff like that. We discuss the issue and if it has enough support then it goes to vote, that is how the system works.
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    Tacticalwithdrawal's Avatar Ghost
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    :sign_stup

    at best the polls just kill discussion as people 'vote' rather than actually think and debate, at worst we destroy any point of an actual vote as the poll is treated as a foregone conclusion.

    As tBP said, the whole point is we discuss things and then vote. People who don't actually want to contribute to the discussion can still read the arguments before they vote and make up their own mind.

    If we keep going down this route we may as well close the prothalmus and just go straight to votes.
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    Obi Wan Asterix's Avatar IN MEDIO STAT VIRTUS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tacticalwithdrawal
    :sign_stup

    at best the polls just kill discussion as people 'vote' rather than actually think and debate, at worst we destroy any point of an actual vote as the poll is treated as a foregone conclusion.

    As tBP said, the whole point is we discuss things and then vote. People who don't actually want to contribute to the discussion can still read the arguments before they vote and make up their own mind.

    If we keep going down this route we may as well close the prothalmus and just go straight to votes.
    Agreed my Pro-Curator nominee

    Furthermore polling becomes a subconcious voting and leaves to an unfair skipping of discussion.
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    Rolanbek's Avatar Malevolent Revenent
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    voted

    R

    (teehee)

    With the amount of polls running at the moment voting is becoming somthing of a reflex. Maybe should suspend polls for the time being until we have some site business to vote on.

    R
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  8. #8

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    I prefer discussion, The Polls should be moved out into the Main curia. Civitates have the right to open polls and ask for opinions IMO. But when only a few people can post polls its unfair and unjust, so I dont agree with it.

    If I'm elected Pro Curator I will stop anymore opinion polls but, see these ones through (I respect sim and they were technically opened when the constitution was suspended) and move them to the curia and not the Tab, I'll also move the opinion polls out of the Tab into the curia. Shameless Politiking there, gotta love it, hehe.
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  9. #9
    Fabolous's Avatar Power breeds Arrogance
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucius Vorenus
    I prefer discussion, The Polls should be moved out into the Main curia. Civitates have the right to open polls and ask for opinions IMO. But when only a few people can post polls its unfair and unjust, so I dont agree with it.

    If I'm elected Pro Curator I will stop anymore opinion polls but, see these ones through (I respect sim and they were technically opened when the constitution was suspended) and move them to the curia and not the Tab, I'll also move the opinion polls out of the Tab into the curia. Shameless Politiking there, gotta love it, hehe.

    A solid idea, but we will need an admin with the ability to cahnge forum permissions to allow us to have votes in the curia. No polls in the curia is an IPB holdover that Sulla was going to change, but then he disappeared...
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  10. #10
    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Can we have a poll on this?

    OK that was lame, but they are often pointless. Surely it would be better to discuss and then vote over an issue. I know my opinions have changed during a discussion.

  11. #11

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    And even discussion on one topic should stay limited to one thread. I sometimes do get the impression that the same things get discussed over and over again and quite often I have nothing new to say. And then suddenly, there is a voting thread about the topic that I had thought discussion had already gotten the majority/minority perfectly clear.

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  12. #12
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    As someone who will sooner or later make another name-change proposal, it is absolutely critical for me to know what changes I can get away with. I don't want to package an unpopular name like Princeps in with presumably popular changes like Praefectus Praetorio to Praetor if it will hurt my chances of success. No, they aren't fully representative, but they're important in allowing me to know what I can safely propose. When a bill has multiple provisions, I don't want one to bring down the rest, and the majority of voting Civitates don't participate in discussions.

    Since these are tools for my own personal information as a will-be bill sponsor, discussion is not necessary for their purpose. I will certainly take into account the fact that some Civitates will change their minds on voting day when considering the polls' implications. I make these surveys for the same reason politicians sign up to Gallup to get polling information: I need to know what people will vote for if I want my bills to be successful. Often my proposals are a bit radical, and I need to know how much I have to tone them down to have a good chance of their passage.

    As for whether they should be in the Curia or Curia Vote, I think the Vote is probably a more appropriate place, so that they don't clog up the main Curia. That's what it's for, after all. Any Civitates was able to start polls in the Curia Vote last I checked.
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  13. #13

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    from the Syntagma

    Curia Vote - area for submitting proposed legislation for voting.
    - The Curia section

    then the proposer can request that the Syntagma Curator moves the Bill to a vote immediately.
    - The Legislation Act

    the implications of those being that:
    the curia vote is for legislation votes only and that
    only syntagma curator can move bills to a vote

  14. #14
    Simetrical's Avatar Former Chief Technician
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Black Prince
    from the Syntagma

    Curia Vote - area for submitting proposed legislation for voting.
    - The Curia section

    then the proposer can request that the Syntagma Curator moves the Bill to a vote immediately.
    - The Legislation Act

    the implications of those being that:
    the curia vote is for legislation votes only and that
    only syntagma curator can move bills to a vote
    The Curia section isn't worded exclusively (it doesn't contain only, for instance). The Legislation Act discusses only legislative votes, not other votes.
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  15. #15
    Fabolous's Avatar Power breeds Arrogance
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    As someone who will sooner or later make another name-change proposal, it is absolutely critical for me to know what changes I can get away with. I don't want to package an unpopular name like Princeps in with presumably popular changes like Praefectus Praetorio to Praetor if it will hurt my chances of success. No, they aren't fully representative, but they're important in allowing me to know what I can safely propose. When a bill has multiple provisions, I don't want one to bring down the rest, and the majority of voting Civitates don't participate in discussions.
    I was actually thinking about your packaging issue before this all came up, and was going to suggest that all your changes are brough forth seperately, sure a little more work for the Curator or Pro-Curator, but hey, it is his job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    As for whether they should be in the Curia or Curia Vote, I think the Vote is probably a more appropriate place, so that they don't clog up the main Curia. That's what it's for, after all. Any Civitates was able to start polls in the Curia Vote last I checked.
    I didn't know that any civ could post in there. Interesting...
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  16. #16
    Basileos Leandros I's Avatar Writing is an art
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    This applies only for Civitates and/or the plebs?!
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  17. #17

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    civitates aren't supposed to post in the vote. only the Curator and Pro-Curator

  18. #18
    Omnipotent-Q's Avatar All Powerful Q
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Black Prince
    i have no problems with surveys to find out how many people have read the syntagma, or howmany civitates are active within periods, though this information can still be misleading,

    but i do not want to see any more opinion polling in the curia, and the current three posted closed.

    these are a pointless useless waste of civitates time, they divide discussion, and in many cases just give people opportunities to bump posted counts with "voted X"

    the statisitcs devolved from these polls are dubious in themselves, especially as many civitates will vote without knowing the discussion behind the poll, and i do not want to see these sort of stats being a driving force behind any legislation on this site.

    if people have an opinion on an issue, they come and post it. thats what the prothalamus is for. we shouldn't be going out asking for people to give an opinion, because thats forcing them to do something they don;t want to do.
    every civitate has the option of debating in the curia, a vote does not show the debate. and a bill should not be passed on statisitics but on debate
    Yes I agree. Perhaps a poll could settle this issue.

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  19. #19

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    *growls* don't even go there


    OK, draft act

    Bill XIV Poll Banning Bill

    It is hereby enacted that no polls nor surveys shall be conducted in the Curia Vote on issues under debate. it is noted that the use of such polls in the curia vote are for the purposes of surveys of civitates, and the voting of legislation, not for polling in the political sense of the word
    i fully realise thta no Bill can be voted on until we have a curator or pro-curator, however, i would like to have this bill wrapped up and ready to ove to vote the minute the curator/pro-curator is elected/appointed

  20. #20

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    Bill XIV Poll Banning Bill

    It is hereby enacted that no polls nor surveys shall be conducted in the Curia Vote Subforum on issues under debate. It is noted that the use of such polls in the curia vote are for the purposes of surveys of civitates, and the voting of legislation, not for polling in the political sense of the word
    I support and sponsor this if I am needed. One slight edit for Clarity.
    Well, if I, Belisarius, the Black Prince, and you all agree on something, I really don't think there can be any further discussion.
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