im fed up with alone generals that kill hundreads...

[Rhavanna]

Haha... if only my own generals worked this way! Eeeesh I just rage-quit a new campaign when my general/prince died in the very first battle...

Just fighting some simple rebels too, T_T; I have my little line of troops all set up perfectly to receive a charge... My crossbows are absolutely *wrecking* his advancing troops, and my general and his bodyguard have gotten around to the rear... where they charge into a unit of rebel archers! From the rear! In perfect formation! Down a hill even!!!

And the very first thing I hear, literally only 2-3 seconds after hearing the charge-horn... "Our foolish general has thrown his life away!"

Really, Mr. General? A few archers too much for you? T_T

[worldsdead]

oh, the players bg is not immortal like ai's bg. my genrals and bg die very quickly when in sustained battle. on vh of course i too get disheartned when i have a battle won and one ai enemy general then proceeds to kill hundreds of soldiers.
and i don't find it realistic even in open field battle for an ai general with say 10 bg attack a unit of spearman, militia or not, and kill them all in seconds. if the unit flees, very realistic, but if a unit would actually engage a unit of horsemen the horse would be tangled, trip, or killed. making men just helpless paperweights surroneded by very pissed off men. even 80 archers, if they didn't flee, would be able to dispatch 10 horseman if they had a mind too. and i do believe 80 men would stand and fight such overwelming odds, even if they lost 40 men from intial charge.
so ai general surrounded by attacking soldiers, he shouldn't last a minute. i do believe a better answer to morale problem would be to raise whole armies morale so it's not so dependent on ai general. there fore improving battle gameplay and making 'snipping' less desirable.

[quikesan]

sorry, I actually was mistaken with the word "thousands", I meant "hundreds"

what I mean, is that is not realistic (and pretty anointing) that 20 armoured guys on a horse can kill 150 spearmen (with high morale, not flying away) surrounding them in close combat (without any cavalry charge, thats another story).

[Cyprexinia]

I once had a General who had about +12-16 hitpoints from traits and buffs, Apothcary etc. I think it was that much, but the guy was a massive tank. As for archers taking BG, sitting on a horse puts you far up, your legs are usually armored and the horse is normally armored or covered in a thick cloth, stabbing the animal or the person would be hard when the horse can easily push through people. Even today horses can drag people and we are talking about fully trained warhorses stomping and pushing people back. I don't think they could take 150+ spears but archers yes.

[quikesan]

Haha... if only my own generals worked this way! Eeeesh I just rage-quit a new campaign when my general/prince died in the very first battle...

Just fighting some simple rebels too, T_T; I have my little line of troops all set up perfectly to receive a charge... My crossbows are absolutely *wrecking* his advancing troops, and my general and his bodyguard have gotten around to the rear... where they charge into a unit of rebel archers! From the rear! In perfect formation! Down a hill even!!!

And the very first thing I hear, literally only 2-3 seconds after hearing the charge-horn... "Our foolish general has thrown his life away!"

Really, Mr. General? A few archers too much for you? T_T

hahaha poor general.....
in general I dont use commanders in battle, I let them just be there and cheer the people up . Just for tracking down escaping units, or when Im desperate and everyone is going to die XD

[quikesan]

I once had a General who had about +12-16 hitpoints from traits and buffs, Apothcary etc. I think it was that much, but the guy was a massive tank. As for archers taking BG, sitting on a horse puts you far up, your legs are usually armored and the horse is normally armored or covered in a thick cloth, stabbing the animal or the person would be hard when the horse can easily push through people. Even today horses can drag people and we are talking about fully trained warhorses stomping and pushing people back. I don't think they could take 150+ spears but archers yes.

Even if they are armored, they couldnt stand agains more than....let say...10 to 1, surrounding them.

Maybe in the game, the AI generals have too much stamina, and/or too much lifepoints

[Ichon]

Personally I think early knights are too strong against infantry in melee as it wasn't until later that horses were covered with armor as well. Mail was pretty effective to protect the knight himself but the horses were vulnerable to weapons and you can read in accounts of battle about the amount of wounded horses and often the knights being forced to fight on foot. Of course in MTW2 there is no way to represent the horse being killed out from under the knight in melee so basically you get the effect of both the horse and the knight being covered in chain.

Though you should consider that we are mostly talking about militia levies which aren't exactly the discipline spearmen of a professional army or lightly armed archers. The levy spearmen are basically poor guys who don't have the money to pay the lord rents so are forced to either till the lords fields or fight for him and have little military training or practice with the basic spears and shields they have. If they manage to kill a knight then their lord claims the spoils not them... so there is little incentive to risk dying. So I am not surprised if 30 mailed knights on horses kill 60 militia levies and the other 90 break and run and then 60 more die from being run down from behind. That is really only 2 men per knight in the first melee.

The problem more is that being tired does not affect attack skill or stat meaningfully, tired and exhausted states affect morale mostly which means a knight or general with already excellent morale just gets average morale but can fight for 6 hours at the same peak level. Its hardcoded though apparently. It would be nice if fatigue effects were faster to both appear and recover from. Probably it wasn't done because AI can't handle the idea of rotating in fresh reserves.

Still- that is how the game is... its relatively easy to learn to deal with it and as much as enemies benefit from it so do your own units and you can use your own units more efficiently than AI so really you are getting the bigger bonus.

[quikesan]

so there is little incentive to risk dying

yeah, sure, but that, in game terms would mean the your unit flies away, which is not what usually happends, they just die until the last man happy thinking "the battle is for sure won"

So I am not surprised if 30 mailed knights on horses kill 60 militia levies and the other 90 break and run and then 60 more die from being run down from behind. That is really only 2 men per knight in the first melee.

Sure that´s accurate, and in the game is really well depicted. Once I had a general with top starts , and top dread (the sentence was something like "even nobles piss in their pants when they see this guy coming") and in battle, he just had to approach, not even make contact a unit to make it fly away.
But that´s not the case Im saying. The case is:
a general with 20 guards, armored, on his horse, in the middle of the town square, surroudned in close combat by 150 spearmen and as result--> 130 spearmen dead. That´s what happens in the game, and what I think is not realistic.

The problem more is that being tired does not affect attack skill or stat meaningfully, tired and exhausted states affect morale mostly which means a knight or general with already excellent morale just gets average morale but can fight for 6 hours at the same peak level. Its hardcoded though apparently. It would be nice if fatigue effects were faster to both appear and recover from. Probably it wasn't done because AI can't handle the idea of rotating in fresh reserves.

That would be really cool and realistic, but maybe very complicated. I think that it could be good just that the generals (or AI generals at least, cause mines die normally) to have less hitpoints. This way, if they charge, they do a lot of damage in the initial charge, and have a lot of chances that the unit panics and fly away, but if they dont, they get stucked surrounded in close combat, and they are screwed. I think that is realistic.

Still- that is how the game is... its relatively easy to learn to deal with it and as much as enemies benefit from it so do your own units and you can use your own units more efficiently than AI so really you are getting the bigger bonus.

Some people here says that the AI BG has some bonus. I dont know, but Im really sure that my generals cant do what AI generals can.

[SoCCo]

i understand your point, and i support your requests but i don't find that happen in my games.
i don't use bgr for a start. i play england, turn 50 or so, i killed 12 french/norvegian generals so far. and with ease, no stakes exploit, no siege units. what i used:
spear militia to take the initial impact and hold the line until 1x gallogaich ( i might have misspelled, they are those scottish/irish merc units with a 2 hand axe ) and 1x macemen flank the GB and charge from behind. this is a risky tactic, i use those 2 formations only for generals. there were some battles when their general was surrounded by his troops and i couldn't flank him. so i waited, lost 90% of my spearmen, lost 70% of my archers, all my heavy cavalery and when their army was thin in numbers and very tired i used my 2 merc units to charge the enemy general. he died 2 seconds after the charge halted and melee started. you just have to use the right weapons and tactic to kill the enemy generals in each battle.

about the realism of your battles, when 20 heavy cavalery kill/rout/capture hundreds of enemy archer/militia units. just think that heavy cavalery did that. the impact of a 1.5 tons horse + knight + armor at that speed (what's the max speed of a medieval warhorse in a charge ?) is deadly to any infantery unit. tell me pls if you can survive if u and let's say 5 palls brace eachother, suit up in plate armor and get ran by a ordinary 200 kg scooter + rider that hits you with a speed of 50km/h. the medieval cavalery owned anything on the battlefield until pike, gunpouder and tactics defeated them.
for the best example of the effect of a cavalery charge read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna

[quikesan]

... the impact of a 1.5 tons horse ...

I think I'm not being read over hear.....
I have said, that chivalry charges are depicted really well, and yes, 20 heavy armoured knights could perfectly kill dozens of guys in a single charge, and more dozens in the consequent chaos (that in most cases occurs... but not always then the unit doesn't fly away and fights back). Actually, the way of using the chivalry is charging, going back, and charging again, not stucking in close combat. I'm not saying anything about charges.

But as you say, try to fight still, in close combat (is there any brigter color than red??) wearing an armour so heavy and bulky that you cant barely see, and the only part you can move is your arms. Yeah, the knight could kill a man with a single move of his sword, but surrounded by 20 guys (even been idiot peasants armed with wooden poles), supposing they dont panic, even if half of them die, one of them would end up pulling him out of the horse, killing the horse, finding a way though the joints of the armour...
so, what I try to mean (once again...) is that 20 knights alone, without any army left, being still, not moving, not using charges, just being surrounded, killing 100 guys (that don't panic) in close combat is not realistic, apart from really annoying.

I think the next time that happens to me I will make some pics to make my self clear...

[Ichon]

What I meant about the incentive for levy not to risk dying doesn't make them total cowards either as even if they won't gain much from winning they might not want to run like rabbits either. Just more imagine 150 relatively untrained and little armored guys poking at some 30 fully mailed knights who are working together as a team to attack portions of the mob around them.

I don't have as much problem with commanders HP but some BG should have lower armor values perhaps. Like I said earlier- mailed knights- fine even if it wasn't totally accurate for all knights in 1100- mailed horses? not really but how to depict it with the engine? Just a bit lower armor. It is only the general what has the 7HP not all his BG so if more than half his BG is alive it is the armor value not the extra HP that you should worry about.

What I see more often is 2 of my heavy cavalry or general charge form different directions and kill entire enemy generals BG except for 1 or 2 men in the charge and then those 3 guys kill 15 BG then only the general escapes and just by himself charges some archers and kills 40 in a few seconds. That is unrealistic ok but so what... so is the fact my general has perfect control of all the units in the battle.

[SoCCo]

quikesan i did understand you. i forgot to mention. in the medieval ages, when the tourneys were THE GAME. lots of wifes and mistresses cryed out loud that their male counterparts were always talking about and training for tourneys, or in worst cases, recover from injuries. now we have football, computers etc, back in those days you had 3 choices: go to church, listen to your wife or go with your palls and train for the tourney. also in the tourneys in france, they were so epic that they got to the point where thousands of knights and squires participated. their aim was to win, not to kill, always to capture the enemy knight. i forgot the guy's name. but his father was the king of england at that time. he hired best knights and squires just to protect him, as he was the heir of england, he was the main target during tourneys. the guy had to pay for food, travel, drinks the knight for each day they were in his service. there is one famous tourney when the heir in question even spent the yearly income of York town each day just for his tourney men. now, knightship, tourneys, beeing a knight was a risky job, the injuries, the war, you must understand that they lived to fight. they gained wealth fighting. they trained each day, except sundays.
on the other hand, militia or poorly trained and equiped infantery. do you think those free peasants or serfs had any chance to fight knights wich were better protected, better equiped to kill, billion times more experienced and better trained in melee? i said above about the charge itself. just think how would u feel if u'd see your pall getting squashed by a car/bike. multiply that by let's say 1000. think of 1000 cars that charge you and your friends ( 10k friends or even more ). you don't have protection, you barely have the means to kill those "cars", you lack training and the morale to fight for your lord, after all if he wins, he'll probably gain more lands that you will have to work 350 days/year. you might survive, but 80% of your palls won't.
this happend those times, doesn't matter if they are 15000 pollish winged hussars saving vienna from ottomans or 25 knights protecting their lord. they are trained to fight mounted, to charge and then melee. while the infantery isn't, or at least it wasn't trained untill some smart guys trained their boys to fight in tight formations using pikes and decided to spend from their treasury for partial plate armor for your pikemen and better pikes/polearms.

so at the end, you must understand that 25 armored, sword wielding highly trained, experienced, motivated and disciplined knights were able to kill during a charge and then in melee more than 1000 poorly trained peasants or low skill infantery units.

[Ottheinrich]

Had that happen to me yesterday:

I was Portugal, playing on H/H. Silves was only guarded by one random moorish General (4 Stars, 14 BG, no significant dread or chiv), so I decided to take that city before reinforcements arrive. I brought my heir (16 BGs) and 3 spearmilitias (level 1 armor update), which was basicly the half of my army at turn 6. I knocked the gates open, walked slowly (hence, no tired troops) to the towncenter, surrounded the general with my troops and attacked with the heir from behind.
And I got slaughtered. Most of my militia was down (no rooting, just good old getting killed in combat) before my heir even entered battle. When he entered battle, his BG were droping like flys. My remaining 30 Spearmen (out of 210) rooted after my heir got killed. At that point, there still were 5 moorish BGs left.
I haven't played since, but I am highly tempted to replay and autowin that battle, 'cause seriously, I feel like the AI won that battle by cheating.

A unit of BGs slaughtering 200+ militia spearmen, now I can accept that, but killing another unit of BGs in less than a minute while fighting 200+ militia spearmen, that is just rediculous!

[Navajo Joe]

Guys,

Firstly, some of you are turning up for battle with the wrong units, you need to have Javelinmen and Crossbowmen, to bring down these armoured Knights, hold them with spearmen, let the Javelins do the work.

We must also remember that non-professional soldier, levies, slaves and peasant arrive on the battlefield for their lord. They are hungry, cold, poorly trained and undisciplined, then the enemy Cavarly, begin to move. Large horses charging towards, the thud of their hooves on the field, the cries of the knights, it would be truly terrifying. Then they hit you and ride thru the formation, breaking it up, the slashing of swords and swinging of maces. Basically survival would take over and you would run for your live.

In Battlefield Britian TV Series by Dan & Peter Snow, Dan stood in a middle of a field and was charged by one of HM Cavarly Units, is heart rate went from from 60 to over 110, he said it was truly frightening, as they galloped towards.

[Epzilon]

If mailed knights would have been surrounded by spearmen after the initial charge they would die. Not so ingame, where they are superior to the guys that surround them and thats not very balanced. How hard can it be to run a spear through a guy and make him fall of his horse?

I think most of the people are probably a bit fed up with general uinits being Über when they are surrounded and they still are able to survive that long and probably get away.

[SoCCo]

seriously guys, u cry for nothing. just use the right weapons against enemy generals.
in open field, use siege units
in offensive siege use siege units and armor piercing units
in defensive siege same as above
DO NOT hope to kill enemy generals with spear militia/levy. no matter their level or armor upgrade. those units are raw meat that must hold the line until your dedicated anti armored units kill the enemy general and his BG.
in vanila MTW2 the ai always charges with his generals asap the gate is down, if you use 2-3 spear militia units u can hold the gate against 10-15 enemy formations until somehow the foolish enemy general gets killed. also crossbow in vanila are overpowered. just 1 formation on the right side of the gate ( defensive view ) can kill even the enemy king in few volleys and the AI is stupid enough to bring his troops just behind the ram. here it's a little different, as the enemy general and most of his army waits at safe distance for the ram to destroy the gate. only then they will charge inside the town. they are tough to kill, but it's for game ballance. how many battles have you won on vanila just because u managed to kill the enemy general with some peasant/levy/militia spearmen? as some of us said, you need to use the right weapons against enemy generals, you can't expect miracles from each militia unit you field on the battlefield.

[Ottheinrich]

Guys,

Firstly, some of you are turning up for battle with the wrong units, you need to have Javelinmen and Crossbowmen, to bring down these armoured Knights, hold them with spearmen, let the Javelins do the work.

Like I said, I have absolutly no problem if a unit of BGs survive against 3 units of Militia/Levy Spearmen. But I do have a problem if this unit of BGs fights against said 3 units of Militia/Levy Spearmen and another unit of BGs at the same loving time and still manages to take each and every of this 4 units down without taking any notiable loses. And it doesn't even need to charge to do so, it just stands there, being awesome, taking the units that beat at it form each possible direction down in an God of War like fashion.

It is absolutly rediculous that the only way to take down a AI unit of BG is a massive volley of crossbows or jevelins while my own BG vanishes in a matter of seconds in melee against an AI BG. I remember that one Lithuanian General that cut down a charging unit of Piast Nobles and my Family Member with almost none loses at all.

And yeah, in RL, Knights were the tanks on the battlefield, so I don't have any problems with them riding down weak militia and such. But knights against Knigths in melee should be a real battle, not the massacre I tend to expirience in my games.

[SoCCo]

... And it doesn't even need to charge to do so, it just stands there, being awesome, taking the units that beat at it form each possible direction down in an God of War like fashion...

do you remember what was the name of that general? he might have been Chuck al Norris.
about knights vs knights, it should be even, only stats and other variables should affect the outcome.

[PerXX]

I remember that one Lithuanian General that cut down a charging unit of Piast Nobles and my Family Member with almost none loses at all.

Next time you see this, notice the position of the individual cavalrymen. Cavalry can only attack to their sides, not front/back. So, if a cavalryman moves forward towards the side of an enemy, he'll be cut down easily without being able to hit back. Wrong positioning can cause inferior cavalry to slaughter much stronger ones with little to no losses.

See this VERY SIMPLE illustration:

Circle = Horseman
Triangle = Area where an attack is possible.

[quikesan]

It is only the general what has the 7HP not all his BG

I dont know exactly the game mechanics. I just think that the AI general unit resist too much damage, so, as you say, maybe it would be nice that they would have less armour. I dont really know about my own generals, cause I use them in battle very little, just to charge alone archers or catapults, and for hunting down escaping units.