Westphalia, Diplomacy and Darthmod...

[EmperorJulian]

So I'm having some interesting difficulties with diplomacy now that I'm back into playing Total War with minor factions. In point of fact I haven't loaded up or used a minor state in ETW since version 1.0, and life is a whole lot different now. The problem I'm facing seems to exist both in Darthmod and Vanilla versions of the game and it's making survival, to say nothing of success as Westphalia a difficult proposition.

The issue at hand is the inability to make peace with factions you can not attack effectively. The ETW Campaign AI seems to think that there is no room for peace unless at least some decisive fighting has taken place. This means that if you are a landlocked country like Westphalia and you get into a war with Sweden due to honoring an alliance, there will be no way to get peace with the Swedes, ever. No amount of bribery, concessions, or gifts will get your opponent to accept an end to hostilities.

And even if by chance you do trudge across Europe and win a few battles and/or secure a province or two, that still might not be enough to quell the Total War AI. This is especially true if the faction has large armies elsewhere, such that the game still senses you could, in theory, be beaten. At any rate I'm sure I'm not the only one experiencing this, but it's of particular importance in my case as Westphalia isn't really in a position to expand without stepping on toes. And it's not always possible to fight those you anger.

In one test campaign, I was at war with Great Britain for 50+ turns after taking Amsterdam for myself (an important step for my faction). For about 40 of those turns my lone port was blockaded without pause, mainly because my port was a trade depot and the British had parked a bunch of shipyard-built ships off my coast line. In effect, there was little if anything I could do to stop the blockade, as I lacked the money or the material to build a fleet to defeat the AI. After like I said 50 or so turns, the English decided to sue for peace, by asking for me to give up Amsterdam to them. Total nonsense, they'd not sent any armies my way and I'm supposed to give up my land? This was in vanilla by the way.

Using Darthmod I find similar problems after getting into a war with Sweden and Prussia through honored alliances. Peace was impossible without a fight, but even after taking Brandenburg I was unable to get Prussia to back off. Of course, in this case the AI was -also- smart enough not to attack me with an adjacent stack in Silesia, so basically there was a standoff, and thus perpetual war. With the Swedes, they could have blockaded my port, but instead they sat around doing nothing, and claiming my offers of peace were "Insulting." Granted I went bankrupt and didn't have the means to fight, but again the situation was stalemated and I could neither fight, nor extricate myself from the problem. In EU3 you get a white peace after five years of inactivity in a war, obviously in this game, that's not an available option.

Sorry for the post length, but as I'm trying to put together a Westphalia AAR, the strategy I'm going to use is that much more important. I just don't know what to do, blitzing is a problem as is waiting around. France tends to attack for no reason, and I can't get bogged down in holding distant Protestant lands (Darth's modifications to religious unrest are brutal). Cologne itself starts with unrest problems and those can be quite nasty if not dealt with immediately. And why in the hell does France have a big 90 point "historical grievance" against Cologne? Hell there's a Wittlesbach on the throne and France is best buds with Bavaria, yet somehow I'm the bad guy? At any rate, I could use some mod-specific advice on how to deal with these issues. Winning every battle makes no difference if I'm constantly blockaded by a faction I can not reach or influence in anyway. Thanks again.

[alhoon]

Have you tried the 6.6 beta for the unrest? There is virtually no unrest possible in your capital.

Also as for the AI not accepting peace if you don't fight them... why would they?

[EmperorJulian]

To your first point, I can't do Darthmod stuff that doesn't involve a suitable unit-size reducer. My computer is too slow for the huge unit sizes used in the Mod and at present I'm using 6.4 with a normal unit size sub-mod. And yes unrest in the capital is definitely a big problem for Westphalia, I believe its due in part to having a population that's 30% protestant, likely the result of amalgamating so many different areas, some of which were indeed Lutheran or Calvinist.

As for the AI not accepting peace, if they don't attack me, and I can't attack them, what's the point of the war exactly? And why -not- accept peace if you can't even get at your enemy? As for the British blockade, I could have eventually dealt with it, it would probably take 40+ years and required me to conquer all of Germany, but it could have been done. The existential problem is that it would completely divert me from what I'm actually looking to do, which has nothing to do with the conquest of all the other German states. Yeah I get it "why should they?" indeed, that's not why I posted however. I want to know how Darthmod types deal with diplomacy. I also know I'm not the only one who has experienced this sort of thing. In Vanilla, like I said, I could just overrun Germany, problem solved. But Darthmod changes the rules and makes that a much more difficult proposition. For one, I can't just overrun cities anymore without cannon, which Westphalia can't build. Also taking over wrong religion provinces is quite a nightmare, and beyond the resources of a single-province minor state. I therefore need to look at better ways of manipulating the diplomatic situation. Surely someone here has a few ideas. And to clarify, yes I did a forum search, no I didn't turn up any recent Darthmod-related diplomatic discussions on minor powers.

At any rate, I'd still appreciate any insight you guys can give me.

[alhoon]

Try using Darthmod and use normal unit size instead of ultra, or smaller than normal.

[EmperorJulian]

Setting unit sizes to "normal" in regular darthmod only reduces the typical line infantry regiment down to 200+ men. Which is still too large. Setting the units to small makes them actually smaller than what I'd like. I think it knocks infantry down to 88 men. There's no happy medium either its smaller than what my machine can handle, or far too large. Hence why I use the sub-mod. I'd hate to have to revert to Vanilla, but it might be necessary in this case. I want to be able to tell an interesting story, not get crushed in 10 years. Here's hoping for a solution.

[For England Men]

1. Normal unit sizes on DMUC is 160 line infantry (equivalent to huge on vanilla)
2. A weak nation won't have much sway in diplomatic discussions I advise getting in with a group of allies that are all friends and remain in alliance with these and any friends they make and then once you are strong enough other factions that don't hate you too much will make peace.
3. First 20 turns are goings to be hardcore as a small 1 province faction but because of your capital unrest it will be even harder I would suggest trying the following.

Remove DMUC completely and install 6.2 then the 6.6 patch which is meant to reduce your unrest problem. Normal unit size then start a new campaign, pick a group of friends stick with them and try to profit from their wars with a lil territory gain or pick on other 1 province nations that are allied with your allie's enemies. Once expanded to 3 provinces you will be able to play as normal.

[EmperorJulian]

Thanks for the informative reply For England Men. Indeed the early moves as a minor faction are difficult, but as Westphalia the problem is that much more accute. There's nothing you can do, expansion wise, that wont result in war with multiple factions, or offending what allies you have. In Vanilla, because I can overrun provinces rapidly by assaulting them (forts or not) and due to the lessened unrest due to religion it's much more "doable." Even if I have England blockading my one trade port forever there's always the option of internal development and conquest of all Germany. I don't want to do that, it's a severe diversion from my plan of action, but it could be done.

Darthmod of course makes such a strategy impossible to implement. And there's the "rub" as it were. With Darthmod, my only option is to capture a protestant region and try to hold it until the 4 rounds or so of rebellions calm down. Then there's still 30+ turns of resistance to foreign occupation and it's unlikely the captured province would be profitable until 15 years down the line, at least. In the interim I'd be plagued by war with multiple nations, some of which can't be reached and wont sign a peace of any kind. If I get Amsterdam I can expect a British blockade of my lone port indefinitely. They wont accept peace, ever. So relying on trade would be out of the question. There's also the fact that the large-stack I'll need to take and hold that lone Protestant region AND defend against foreign attack will likely be so expensive to maintain that I'll likely go bankrupt.

There are no good solutions with Westphalia on a good day, only less bad solutions. Since I'm looking to tell a story, going back to Vanilla is an option. I'm not in this to prove I'm some kind of great Total War campaigner. And I don't think waiting 30 turns for alliances to be broken of their own accord would be a good idea either. I need to secure a major city so I can research military techs and I can't wait until 1750 to do that.

By the way does Darthmod handicap the diplomacy of minor states deliberately? Just wondering. There must be a solution somewhere to this problem.

[For England Men]

No problem mate, the only handicap you have in diplomacy is that you are the player so the AI is designed to want to see you destroyed by CA and the other disadvantage you have is that your power and wealth have a big impact on the deals you get so the fact you are one of the weakest smallest nations is your disadvantage.

You say that your conquering the germanic states is not the way you want to play, what are your goals for your campaign? If you tell us this then we may be able to give you some strategic tips on how to get there.

I find that as bigger factions you can go down what ever road you want to but as some of the smaller factions you don't have as many choices.

[loony]

well, as english i would not sign peace with you either unless you threaten something I have or want. why would I help you?
you are not threat to me, just an annoyance.
the british ships in european region may as well be blockading your port, let you stew in your bankruptcy...
and why should i land my troops in amsterdam? I may be better of fighting for India and keep an upstart like you on your knees economically.
this is also very historical, I cripple your economy and let other europeans die while fighting you on the ground.

While it may seem reasonable to make peace just have a look at the Koreans (real life!) today, they are still officially at war, north vs south. wtf do you want from an AI in a game?!

[HissingNewt]

Try editing the unit mulitplier script for the game. I don't really know where the Darthmod script is, but that's what I did for Napoleon (and it's possible in Empire) to get larger unit sizes.

[EmperorJulian]

loony - that's all very well and good, except the blockade wasn't bankrupting me. In fact it wasn't stopping me at all. During that test campaign I simply diverted into Brandenburg and I was well on my way to developing a German land-empire. The point I was trying to make, which has been missed roundly is that the blockade created the need for a massive diversion in strategy that I didn't -desire- to engage in. Really, that's what I'm getting at, the blockade did nothing, the British never landed any troops, they never deigned to fight me AND they wouldn't sign a peace. That is where the problem lies. Also that was in vanilla anyway.

At any rate, I developed new strategies with Westphalia that allowed me to survive to 1728. I also am putting an AAR together for that campaign, wish it could have been longer but at the end, though I'd secured three provinces and was quite able to defend myself, France, Prussia and Hannover all declared war on me at once and that was that. France seems to declare war no matter what my relations with them are, Prussia seemed to do so because I had a border with Saxony and I "looked" weak. Individually I could have easily dealt with the Prussians, but of course, not the French. Hannover always wants a piece of me so the fact that they piled on really is no surprise. To date I can't think of a means of survival as Westphalia in Darthmod, one can only buy off the French with 10,000 gold every so often.

In point of fact the campaign I was engaged in was going more or less as I intended, after 1724 I thought I'd made it over the hump, I'd secured Amsterdam and Brussles and like I said I could defend myself competently. My goals were to do just that, create a regional northwest German power base and then seize colonies from Spain in South America, and to convert to a Constitutional Monarchy. In Darthmod I think victory might be impossible, in Vanilla I can win, but to date, I have to divert into a bunch of continental campaigns that would likely take 50 or 60 years and aren't what I'm trying to do anyway. C'est la vie though, I'll survive.