Balancing issue with elephants

**Moritol** · December 02, 2010, 05:40 PM

When I first gained sight at elephants playing as romans, I thought it was going to be very tough...
well, it wasn't. I had one bunch of mounted akritae and those elephants died like flies, I lost 4 horsemen.

I was a bit confused and disappointed after this, so I started some custom battles against elephants. The results were all the same: javelins are

ing devastating, arquebuses are not (they just scratch), muskets are as effective as javelins (but that should be obvious).

It bothers me a bit that all you have to do is to recruit some javelin throwers for 300 to counter elephants which cost 3000. After all I want to be forced to use artillery and armor piercing polearms when facing elephants.

**Ishan** · December 02, 2010, 06:09 PM

Increase the hitpoints of the elephants in the EDU aka export_descr_unit.txt file or you could fiddle with it's defence etc until you think that it's balanced for your game style.

**Moritol** · December 02, 2010, 06:22 PM

Elephants already have 6 hitpoints, but this bonus doesn't seem to work against javelins.
Arquebuses have a higher attack value, but they are useless... or a least a whole lot less effective.
Maybe javelins still got the hidden attribute "effective against chariots and elephants" from RomeTW

.

**Tears of Destiny** · December 02, 2010, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by Moritol

Elephants already have 6 hitpoints, but this bonus doesn't seem to work against javelins.
Arquebuses have a higher attack value, but they are useless... or a least a whole lot less effective.
Maybe javelins still got the hidden attribute "effective against chariots and elephants" from RomeTW

.

First off they really do help. Try modding it for 1HP a pop and see how fast they drop.
Secondly, I think Javelins have the "Effective Against Armor" attribute that maces and Axes have. They are a great way to flatten even general's bodyguard.
Arquebuses look less effective because they do not have the effective against armor attribute (Halves the armor value) as well as being inaccurate, and mainly used for causing fear (of which the elephant units have a high mental stat if I remember correctly). They also have a slower reload animation.

**Moritol** · December 02, 2010, 06:46 PM

I am playing RC/RR, so there is no armor piercing ability for missile units anymore, containing javelin men
(I am not talking about greek fire and naphtha).

Arbalestes also do a good job against elephants, but not even as half effective as javelins.

**Tears of Destiny** · December 02, 2010, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Moritol

I am playing RC/RR, so there is no armor piercing ability for missile units anymore, containing javelin men
(I am not talking about greek fire and naphtha).

Arbalestes also do a good job against elephants, but not even as half effective as javelins.

In that case, this should be moved to the RR/RC Forums.

EDIT: Never mind, got numbers wrong

Check Data/descr_projectile for details on ammunition, if you care to note some differences.

**Point Blank** · December 03, 2010, 05:39 AM

Javelins have the thrown attribute, which for some reason I guess only CA could explain, gives them a massive, ridiculous bonus versus elephants. You can change the thrown attribute to missile, everything still seems to work OK, except that the targetting icon will change from a javelin to a bow.

**Smokey Bacon** · December 03, 2010, 08:45 AM

Elephants arn't all that tough.

**Moritol** · December 03, 2010, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by Point Blank

Javelins have the thrown attribute, which for some reason I guess only CA could explain, gives them a massive, ridiculous bonus versus elephants. You can change the thrown attribute to missile, everything still seems to work OK, except that the targetting icon will change from a javelin to a bow.

Thanks, gonna try it.
After all compared with their recruitment cost, elephants really should be harder to kill.

**Moritol** · December 03, 2010, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Smokey Bacon

Elephants arn't all that tough.

Depends on how you use them, they are worth their money against melee cavalry and normal infantry... and archers, as long as they don't run amok.
But with the arrival of accurate cannons and muskets, they are not worth their money any more.

**k/t** · December 03, 2010, 11:22 PM

I also have a question about elephant balance. It concerns their speed. This already came up before, but no definitive numbers were arrived at. This is the past discussion: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...84#post7537684

What would be a good number to change the speed of elephants to? I don't know how the speed modifier numbers relate to each other (linearly, as part of an equation, etc.) so I was hoping someone who knows could help me out (such as PB, since he knows this mod better than anyone). I fought the Timurids and their elephants managed to catch up to my Mounted Sergeants (who were routing, if it matters) and take them prisoner. That reminded me of the old thread so here I am.

**Point Blank** · February 17, 2011, 08:14 AM

Just add the line
move_speed_mod 0.9 (or whatever)
below the attributes line for Elephants in the EDU. If you have some suggestion for a reasonable value I'll add to next update.

**k/t** · February 17, 2011, 01:11 PM

I don't, which is why I was hoping for a discussion on the issue.

Wikipedia gives us:

Canter: 16-27 km/h.
Gallop: 40-48 km/h.

Asian elephant top speed: 25 km/h.

Maybe make the elephant's speed 60% of the horse's base one? Right now I don't think there is a modifier for their speed, so they're as fast as the light horse, or whatever the base is. Considering the big installation with people in it that they have to carry on their backs, even 50% seems reasonable.