Alleged Abuse of Griefing Rules

[Poach]

Edit: Forget it, I've withdrawn from PvP and, as such, am no longer qualified to argue for rule changes or interpretations. A lock/deletion of this thread would seem appropriate.

[King Sama]

Well the "Gamey" option's consequences would be very thin ice, in that case there wouldn't be a point to defending kingdoms or traps, etc as people could just grief their way out of it.

Imo making hidden entrances or difficult to find levers is a legit form of defense in essence. However I guess it can be abused so i might agree to some regulation, but given the two available options I'd have to say "legit"

[Ascarona]

It's a great way of defence, but gameplay wise it's very unfair. However I think we need to redo the rules of warfare because people are mass quiting the whole PvP idea. I'd take the liberty to come up with a book of warfare but I'm a little time constricted and I think some of the rules would go rather far...

[Aanker]

Sorry, but we weren't even allowed to post our defensive arguments?

[Poach]

Post, Aanker, and I'll quote it in the OP.

Edit: Sama, this is dealing with preventing people gaining access to your project at all. Traps are still fair game, the enemy will just have to bring ladders with them if they want to escape any pitfalls you make for them.

[Aanker]

Whatever it matters, here it is.

Again, it disappoints me heavily that this was taken to poll so quickly, without further discussion, without us being able to present counterarguments within the very initiation of the poll, and the fact that the poll introduction itself is - at least in my humble opinion - heavily biased against us.

Our arguments

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

While I can quite honestly see your point very clearly, there are numerous obvious problems with what you say. First of all, allowing griefing for getting past defenses such as these will bias the game unfairly towards attackers and those with lots of time available, as I have stated before. Player A might not be able to stay online for more than a few hours a week, while player B, on the other hand, is able to stay on the server for a far longer period of time than Player A.

Suppose then, that we introduce the new resource system for Kingdoms as proposed by Stunt. Player A will mine resources as well as he can, store them in chests, and then log off. This is exactly what Player B has been waiting for: he moves to Player A's fortress during the cover of the night, but finds the metal gate locked. Now, with the rules you propose, he would just be able to steal inside and fetch all the resources for himself. This could go on forever, and Player A would be at a huge, massive disadvantage at the hands of Player B. If we stick to the 'no griefing' rules, however, Player A would actually have a chance against his enemy, even though he has a lacking amount of time on his hands.

Secondly, a good defense should be rewarded as such. There is, quite simply, no sense in the fact that players who put down a lot of work on their defenses (me included; I would suspect that the total amount of work put down into the redstone network is countable in hours) should be punished for what they have done to guard their riches. This is comparable to the work involved in attacking someone: ten minutes marching to a fortress, then perhaps as little as two minutes actually finding the treasure (add three seconds if one has to destroy blocks in the way). The comparison in time dimension is astonishing, apparent and entirely undeniable.

Thirdly, who is to say what is entirely impassable? Where is the limit? Suppose that I construct a massive labyrinth to guard the treasure chamber. Should the attacker just be allowed to cut, cut and continue cutting through until he reaches the bounty? The sheer interpretability of your proposal is the greatest problem. Eventually, if we allow the attackers to choose what is griefable and what isn't, he might just end up thinking:

'Oh look, a wall. IMPASSABLE.'
(the attacker cuts through a wall that took several hours to build, in a matter of seconds)

Fourth, some of the redstone constructions that I have built in Erthir are extremely vulnerable to such things as griefing. Placing an additional redstone block somewhere could potentially ruin the entire defense system meaning that I'd have to search through all the cable systems, locate the error, fix it (if possible, given the numerous bug/latency issues with redstone), then see if it works. And let's not forget that it could be griefed again. This point is related to my last point, which is

If griefing is allowed to get past what the attacker thinks is 'impassable', then we might just as well build a huge, cuddly gate welcoming our enemies into our treasure chamber, served on a fine plate of silver together with wine from southern France.

PS. Poach, you provided another argument against the one I provided? How is that fair?

[Nyxos]

i want a 3rd option : screw PvP, it has brought only pain and misery.

[King Sama]

Post, Aanker, and I'll quote it in the OP.

Edit: Sama, this is dealing with preventing people gaining access to your project at all. Traps are still fair game, the enemy will just have to bring ladders with them if they want to escape any pitfalls you make for them.

What defines a trap? If you can bypass a door, you can bypass a wall, a pitfall, a maze, almost anything that doesnt automatically kill you. Even that in some cases.

People can gain access to the projects, and as long as they are not physically impossible to enter without griefing, the tactic is legitamate. Moreover, the dwarves have made sacrifices for this level of security, whereas kingdoms like squeaktasia haven't. Its not easy for us to enter our constructions, we have to close doors behind us, and we're pretty much closed off from the outside world, but for that we have security. If you want to have access to our mines make agreements with us and build an embassy

[Makrell]

What defines a trap? If you can bypass a door, you can bypass a wall, a pitfall, a maze, almost anything that doesnt automatically kill you. Even that in some cases.

People can gain access to the projects, and as long as they are not physically impossible to enter without griefing, the tactic is legitamate. Moreover, the dwarves have made sacrifices for this level of security, whereas kingdoms like squeaktasia haven't. Its not easy for us to enter our constructions, we have to close doors behind us, and we're pretty much closed off from the outside world, but for that we have security. If you want to have access to our mines make agreements with us and build an embassy

The squecktasian had not the time to build defenses as we were not planning a big war. We just wanted some minor clashes, like the ones in squck tower

[The Hedge Knight]

Can i just pointout there is a lever hidden within 20 blocks of my door which will bear the innards of our city.

There is an entrance from my infinity tunnel to the deep roads to every city (just turn left at the stairs). Our cities are open.

There is another entrance to the deep roads behind a statue i built.

There is a hole at the top of the mountain you can go down.

Mitches entrance is 100% open and connected to all other dwarven cities.

Its open, and not hidden.

I aint even booby trapped them.

[Poach]

King Sama: Take your cities, for example. Attackers should be able to get inside them to fight you. If you have pitfalls inside the city and they get stuck in them, they're down there unless they happen to have ladders or you have an exit there etc etc. Bascially, this rule is to prevent people making projects that you simply can't attack.

If you can sit somewhere that your enemy cannot reach without having to find secret entrances then they should be allowed to build or remove so they can reach you to attack you.

[Nyxos]

Sorry for the repeat post,

I'd like to say that the dwarves defense system is 100% legit and totally minecrafty (since this game is about building things), they have spend some time elaborating and testing those defenses, and just because other people are too lazy to do the same amount of work doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed.

Now I'm not going to vote in this poll, because creating it before both sides have had a chance to defend themselves is antidemocratic and defeats the sense of the poll issue itself. This poll, whatever the outcome should be considered void and another should be made.

I'm am seriously disappointed by Poach on this one, because I got used to someone that was willing to hear both sides of a argument before deciding. I guess I was wrong.

[Makrell]

Can i just pointout there is a lever hidden within 20 blocks of my door which will bear the innards of our city.

There is an entrance from my infinity tunnel to the deep roads to every city (just turn left at the stairs). Our cities are open.

There is another entrance to the deep roads behind a statue i built.

Its open, and not hidden.

I aint even booby trapped them.

So whats your basicly saying is that you made an entrance to the commonwealth from far far away, which removes the possibility to siege when close by, and your tunnel is also very hard to find. I tried a lot

[Poach]

Nyxos: I informed Aanker I was creating the poll before I wrote it and informed him when I put it up. He had ample time to come and post a defence.

Also: Seriously guys, this PvP was meant as a simple way for groups (kingdoms) to fight each other. There's nothing to win or lose, everything is spawnable. Why are we going to such extremes to gain advantages? The Dwarves fortresses are never going to be attacked, no one is going to waste the effort in jumping through such elaborate hoops. I just want things simplified by allowing easy ways to bypass such ridiculousness.

[Nyxos]

Nyxos: I informed Aanker I was creating the poll before I wrote it and informed him when I put it up. He had ample time to come and post a defence.

you should've started the poll after he had posted, or done like Mitch, have a discussion, then a poll.

[King Sama]

The squecktasian had not the time to build defenses as we were not planning a big war. We just wanted some minor clashes, like the ones in squck tower

thats what we had, wasnt it? Minor clashes in squeak tower... And a monument.

@Poach
We go through the trouble to make the defense so you should have to find them. Besides, like Josst said his infinity tunnel goes right into his kingdom, and we (or I) was talking about connecting all of the kingdoms anyways.

Whats the point of building in a mountain or have secret treasures if anyone can just come right in, or grief their way in?

And I'd like to second this quote by Nyxos

I'd like to say that the dwarves defense system is 100% legit and totally minecrafty (since this game is about building things), they have spend some time elaborating and testing those defenses, and just because other people are too lazy to do the same amount of work doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed.

[Poach]

Ya know what? Fine. Forget the poll. Count me out of PvP entirely. All I wanted was a simple system for people to be able to fight each other. If you guys are going to get super serious and build defences that would require hours to even begin to assault then do so, I certainly won't be bothering with them.

[Aanker]

Nyxos: I informed Aanker I was creating the poll before I wrote it and informed him when I put it up. He had ample time to come and post a defence.

I wasn't online at the time you said that you posted the poll, unless you mean the comment 'I'm going to bring it up with the community' posted before I left the game temporarily (I was still online, however) to talk to the TGW members on development of our mod. I hope that you understand when I say that even ten minutes of preparation would have been insufficient.

Also: Seriously guys, this PvP was meant as a simple way for groups (kingdoms) to fight each other. There's nothing to win or lose, everything is spawnable. Why are we going to such extremes to gain advantages? The Dwarves fortresses are never going to be attacked, no one is going to waste the effort in jumping through such elaborate hoops. I just want things simplified by allowing easy ways to bypass such ridiculousness.

For the record, we built the defenses in preparation of the possibility of an introduction of what Stunt proposed, and also to keep out enemies from our halls. I don't think that the Squeaktasians have been enjoying our frequent stays on their lands - even with nothing to lose in terms of material wealth.

And as Nyxos said, this poll is, to me, a great disappointment. I would rather have seen something along the lines of the discussion that was made prior to the vote regarding Josst's and Mitch's territorial claims. While I may not have the authority to consider it as such, I will at least see the result of this poll as rather meaningless and void of value.

[.Mitch.]

The 3 Dwarve assaults on the squeaks started by the Dwarves running literly across the map.

Just because a 12 year old cries about the fact someone is using doors in Minecraft (<--OMFG THE CHEATING SCANDAL), does not mean anything is going to come of this.

If you break through my wall to get past any door. Thats griefing. End of.

And the lack of a discussion before anyone on the opposing side has a change to say anythign... well its just sad.

Its people like Poach that make that real PVP server appealing to me.

[King Sama]

Ya know what? Fine. Forget the poll. Count me out of PvP entirely. All I wanted was a simple system for people to be able to fight each other. If you guys are going to get super serious and build defences that would require hours to even begin to assault then do so, I certainly won't be bothering with them.

Thats kind of the point or defenses

Besides, if we're stuck in our halls, guess what? The aboveground land is pretty much yours. What else do you want?