PvP and other Issues - Discussion

[Musthavename]

PvP issues have got pretty messy lately, with threads being derailed or turning into discussions. The whole thing has gotten pretty messy. So I was just on the server talking to a couple of people and suggested starting over with what's been suggested, neatening things up, and then we can go forward with votes and getting some rules in place.

Edit: Please ONLY post on these sorts of issues. Do not turn this into a discussion on ongoing wars for example.

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Kingdoms:

People seem pretty set on the idea of Kingdoms and I haven't heard much opposition. If anyone has alternatives, suggest it. But currently, we seem set on an Alliance/Protectorate system between Kingdoms, with the Free City in the centre of everything. People have to be either members or vassals of a Kingdom to pass through it, or have consent. Otherwise, they are free game. However, any player wishing to wander through a Kingdom cannot simply walk in and attack members of that Kingdom, but he can be attacked himself (and obviously, can fight back if attacked).

Also, griefing rules apply no matter what. So if you fight a Kingdom, you can't destroy their creations. Only kill their players and take their items. You're free to build and or destroy whatever you like in the wilderness with consideration for constructions of others, as per "The Golden Rule".

Declaring War:

This needs to have some more debate. Currently, I see the following options:

-Free Declarations: Kingdoms can declare war on whomever they like at any time. Wether this is the form of an advanced declaration (say, 1 day's warning) allowing people to prepare (in the form of a stickied Kingdoms thread perhaps) or just on impulse, also needs to be decided if this method was chosen.
-Mutual Consent: Kingdoms have to both agree to war to proceed. This could also incorporate an "ultimatum" discussion where allies can decide wether they want to join, or if people want to hire mercenaries, etc...

The Wilderness:

We also need to decide on what to do with players, wether members of Kingdoms or not, fighting in areas outside designated Kingdoms.

- Free for all: Anyone can attack anyone in these areas.
- Kingdoms orientated: People can only attack those from other Kingdoms. This can also be extended to wether you do this based on if war is currently ongoing, or not.
- Peace: The wilderness is like the city, a designated peace zone, with the following exception. People upon seeing each other or agreement in advance, can have fights in the wilderness.

The Opt-Out:

Will people have the choice of ignoring PvP completely? [This issue slightly overlaps the wilderness choices]

- Opt-Out: People can choose not to participate in any PvP. (How this is done, wether certain skins are used or items worn to indicate peace, is for later discussion). They may or may not be allowed to wander Kingdoms, but they are free from PvP in the wilderness and their own designated constructions, and are immune from declarations of war (essentially, they are part of a neutral, Pacifist Kingdom).
- No Opt-Out. There is no way to opt-out from PvP. You are designated an independant Kingdom (simply to be known as "<Player>'s Kingdom" until designated otherwise) if you do not belong to another, or simply belong to a "wilderness faction", where you have no associated diplomacy. How you are involved in PvP then depends on how we decide to go about Declarations of War and the Wilderness.

Spawning:

Kingdoms don't really work with free spawning, as there's nothing to gain from war. Hence, we need to debate spawning. [Edit: Spawning would remain the same for those who do not belong to any Kingdom subject to the vote on any Opt-Out. I.e: If we vote for an opt-out, things can be spawned for individual and city use, but people are prohibited from spawning items in their individual Kingdoms. This vote decides on how prohibited people are while members of Kingdoms.]

Free Spawning: All items are spawnable.
No PvP Items: Everything is spawnable except items which have a PvP use. Namely Swords, Bows, Arrows and Armour. This would also include "valuable" resources such as Diamond / Gold which serve as currency.
Tools: Only the spawning of tools is allowed. Tools would include Pickaxes, Axes, Hoes, Spades, Flint & Steel, Buckets, Fishing Rods and TNT. [Edit: I'd also put Torches in there] Everything else must be gathered. [I'm also unsure wether to include Minecart systems, Redstone, Lava/Water in this, but those can be decided at a later date]. If the resources would be required for a communal city building, then subject to approval by some select OPs, it can be spawned.

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That's all i've identified. Please post your opinions on these issues, and things i've left out which you want to discuss. I'll update this thread regularly, and once we have agreement on what options we have, we can vote separatly on each issue.

[Aanker]

Great initiative, precisely the thread we needed!

I think that we could in fact launch the Declaration of War soon, seeing as there really aren't that many real options. Maybe a 'no PvP at all' option should be added, however, but I don't think anyone has supported such a suggestion.

[Dewy]

Kingdoms:

No one can wear armour, you must wear a skin that represents your kingdom. For example dwarfs look like dwarfs and akar looks like Stalin.

You can only steal from kingdoms you are at war with after a battle.

Declaring War:

Free Declarations: With at least 24 hour warning

The Wilderness:

Free for all: Minus attacking your own kingdom members, everyone is game. Like we originally decided.

The Opt-Out:

You can opt-out of being in a kingdom but you are still game in the wilderness

Spawning:

Tools: Pickaxes, Axes, Hoes, Spades, Flint & Steel, Buckets, Fishing Rods and TNT Minecart systems Redstone Lava/Water
Anything that you can't get such as leaves for a hedge.

You can spawn for personal or city construction but nothing to do with kingdoms.

[Mangerman]

You have presented the different views very well, Musthave.

I still hold the opinion that the Opt-Out (as described in the opening post) should be available, even if the majority here doesn't want it, as I think no-one has the right to force someone else to take part in something they don't enjoy the slightest. It does not hurt the PvPers when this option would be available, but it would hurt the non-PvPers if it wasn't available.

[Stuntdawg5]

Yeah, opting out is less of a community choice than you think. If a single person doesn't want to participate than it's not debatable. That person has the right to do that, and i would be required to enforce that. But those who do not participate would have to have very strict rules. Such as a specific skin (love the skin idea), not allowed to participate in any kingdom activites, etc.

I still disagree with the spawning Musthave. I feel that nothing but TNT should be spawned. Being able to spawn all of that would kill the trade system. We should have to work for all our tools and stuff. Just my opinion on that

[Mangerman]

I don't think non-PvPers should have to wear a specific skin, as from what I have been reading it will just be a small minority. It's would be very easy to memorize their names (and as you can see other peoples names from very far away, accidentally killing them would be pretty much impossible).

[Musthavename]

I frankly see the spawning of Tools as imperative and fairly inconsequential. I can churn out Stone Tools like no tomorrow and mine with those. It's just more convinient and slightly quicker to just say "don't worry about it" and allow diamond tools. [This is assuming that things were eventually changed to stop the "Drop the Item and it regains full health" thing, because as of right now, it's not difficult to find the 3 Diamonds it takes to get an Infinite Diamond Pick]. And it's not like you can turn those Tools back into resources either. I also don't see your case for making TNT exempt. For one, a Kingdom could make a mob farm eventually and farm enough Gunpowder to manufacture TNT en masse. In which case, it's a valuable resource to them.

As for the Opt-Out, it's my view there should definetly be one, and it should protect you everywhere, but I know many people would love to see everyone being fair game (Dewy for example has already posted as such). I would however think the Opt-out "vote" should require a strong majority (66-75% say?) of people opposing it to prevent it, if one went ahead at all. The reasoning - If someone hates PvP and there's no Opt-Out, the server is ruined for them. If someone loves PvP and there is an Opt-Out, he's not going to like not being able to kill certain people, but that's not gamebreaking for him, he still has PvP. I personally wouldn't mind if there were no Opt-out, but i'm certainly going to vote for it, as I certainly don't want people leaving the server because they detest PvP.

[.Mitch.]

Kingdoms:

You can only steal from kingdoms you are at war with after a battle.

Declaring War:

Free Declarations: With at least 24 hour warning

The Wilderness:

Free for all: Minus attacking your own kingdom members, everyone is game. Like we originally decided.

The Opt-Out:

You can opt-out of being in a kingdom but you are still game in the wilderness. (Your own fort in the wilderness wouldn't count as 'Wilderness')

Spawning:

Tools: Pickaxes, Axes, Hoes, Spades, Flint & Steel, Buckets, Fishing Rods and TNT Minecart systems Redstone Lava/Water
Anything that you can't get such as leaves for a hedge.

You can spawn for personal or city construction but nothing to do with kingdoms.

Rare materials used as currency to make war 'worth it'. With no armour being spawned obviously.

[Musthavename]

My issue with making people who Opt-Out still vulnerable in the Wilderness is this. What if they want to simply scout the Wilderness for locations to put their constructions? What if they're wandering back to their construction from the City, or vice-versa? Why should they be vulnerable there (since eventually, they'll already be vulnerable to monsters)? I don't see the problem with attacking them if they wander into your Kingdom however, or even the Nether when that's actually up.

Also, you don't need to use this thread to voice your opinions on which possibilites you prefer. This is more discussing which ones it is appropriate to vote on, and wether things i've outlined should be tinkered with, options added, or options removed. Essentially, I want this thread to allow us to gauge how we need to proceed, so we can get rules as soon as possible.

[Stuntdawg5]

I frankly see the spawning of Tools as imperative and fairly inconsequential. I can churn out Stone Tools like no tomorrow and mine with those. It's just more convinient and slightly quicker to just say "don't worry about it" and allow diamond tools. [This is assuming that things were eventually changed to stop the "Drop the Item and it regains full health" thing, because as of right now, it's not difficult to find the 3 Diamonds it takes to get an Infinite Diamond Pick]. And it's not like you can turn those Tools back into resources either. I also don't see your case for making TNT exempt. For one, a Kingdom could make a mob farm eventually and farm enough Gunpowder to manufacture TNT en masse. In which case, it's a valuable resource to them.

Alright, then let me ask you this question. Say we spawn tools, and everyone has their diamond tools all the time. What would be the purpose in trading diamonds? Their worth would fall massively. Of course you could still make armor and weapons, but with tools out of the way, diamonds would be used only for armor and weapons, making its worth drop considerably. I like not spawning tools cause it makes the game more challenging. Now people would have to consider carefully before trading away diamonds. They'd have to stockpile them, in order to always have a decent amount in stock when their tools run out. It would make the game much more interesting and difficult

[Musthavename]

Diamonds could still be used as a "bragging factor". It would really cement the power of your Kingdom if you had a throne made of Diamonds for example. There are other uses out there.

Point is, in single player, I don't use my Diamond Pick for anything except Redstone, Gold and Diamond. I dig through everything else with Stone tools, as it simply makes more sense with resources. Using Diamond is a little faster, but it's not worth the resource waste. I don't see why you need to turn SMP into that conservative with tools.

The other problem is if you banned tools, you'd have to adjust spawning everywhere. This is only for discerning spawning for Kingdoms. If I spawn a tool to use on a city construction, do I then have to keep it in the city, or destroy it if I went to a Kingdom? It's simply too open to abuse and completely unenforceable unless you changed spawning totally.

[Aanker]

Kingdoms:

You can only steal from kingdoms you are at war with after a battle.

Declaring War:

Free Declarations: With at least 24 hour warning

The Wilderness:

Free for all: Minus attacking your own kingdom members, everyone is game. Like we originally decided.

The Opt-Out:

You can opt-out of being in a kingdom but you are still game in the wilderness. (Your own fort in the wilderness wouldn't count as 'Wilderness')

Spawning:

Tools: Pickaxes, Axes, Hoes, Spades, Flint & Steel, Buckets, Fishing Rods and TNT Minecart systems Redstone Lava/Water
Anything that you can't get such as leaves for a hedge.

You can spawn for personal or city construction but nothing to do with kingdoms.

Rare materials used as currency to make war 'worth it'. With no armour being spawned obviously.

I agree mostly, although I think spawning should be limited to tools (such as the ones listed) and TNT. I also think that there should be no spawning of any blocks, or other such obtainable items.

As for the current discussion on tools, I do agree with Musthavename. Tools should be entirely spawnable, especially since it's possible to fully restore the health of a tool by simply dropping it on the ground, then immediately picking it up again.

And as Musthavename pointed out: if we say that diamond jewels and blocks are the most prestigeous items to be had, people will regard them as such. The very rarity of diamond ore is going to further enhance this effect, and the Kingdom with the most diamonds will have the doubtlessly have something to boast about.

[Stuntdawg5]

I agree mostly, although I think spawning should be limited to tools (such as the ones listed) and TNT. I also think that there should be no spawning of any blocks, or other such obtainable items.

As for the current discussion on tools, I do agree with Musthavename. Tools should be entirely spawnable, especially since it's possible to fully restore the health of a tool by simply dropping it on the ground, then immediately picking it up again.

And as Musthavename pointed out: if we say that diamond jewels and blocks are the most prestigeous items to be had, people will regard them as such. The very rarity of diamond ore is going to further enhance this effect, and the Kingdom with the most diamonds will have the doubtlessly have something to boast about.

Alright, it's up to you guys, doesn't matter all that much either way I suppose.

[Poach]

What we really need is a list of Kingdoms and their members. We should try to keep numbers fair-ish.

[Makrell]

What we really need is a list of Kingdoms and their members. We should try to keep numbers fair-ish.

Ok, ill try
The empire of Squecktasia
Makrell (Maklrell92)
Nhygtbvfeco2(ca=)
Squecks(Squeckydac)(i think)

[crossjon]

THE DWARVEN EMPIRE-COMMONWEALTH

Aanker
Mitch
Josstwc (The Hedge Knights)
Crossjon
Grazzle (King Sama)
Dewy

MILITARY ALLIES AND PROTECTORATES

Ascarona - Skyland

[Musthavename]

Please can we not put the listings here. I'd like this topic to stay focused on what people want to vote for.

[Mangerman]

I think it would be good if this thread was stickied until we start having polls to vote on.

[Makrell]

As the Kingdoms idea is creeating all this drama i wish to rethink the arena ideas. TO keep a wast arena were teams can construct defenses and such and fight their wars, no diplomacy and other involved, only fighting and sieging. Building the best defenses and try to defend them. Teams could switch all the time or we could hve clans

[Bregil]

Ok, ill try
The empire of Squecktasia
Makrell (Maklrell92)
Nhygtbvfeco2(ca=)
Squecks(Squeckydac)(i think)

Makrell, that's Squeaktasia, Squeaks, and Squeakydac.