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Thread: A Proper Empire: Terra Incognita v1.1.0 - Discussion and Suggestions

  1. #101

    Default Re: A Proper Empire: Terra Incognita v1.1.0 - Discussion and Suggestions

    Some things I noticed immediately upon trying this mod:

    Building an iron mine (low yield) adds only +75 wealth, but costs 8250. I started a campaign with Denmark and I can build one in Norway (50% taxes with medium tax sliders) but it would take 220 turns to pay for itself. This is a somewhat extreme example, but with no offence meant, the balance of economic buildings I find to be extremely bad. Buildings which contribute fixed wealth are just not viable and even those that contribute growth will take a long time to pay for themselves. If this is intentional then I guess fair enough, but why not simply remove the buildings from the game then? Surely it's just a handicap for the AI to have economic buildings function as money sinks?

    The education costs are quite massive. For most of the countries I've looked at, they are just not affordable--e.g. on Hard Denmark needs to pay 3,000 per turn for a School, but even with all trade routes used and taxes at the highest level, does not make this much money. I guess it's possible to maintain the School if you conquer some provinces, but not with Denmark's starting territory. Major powers have it better, but the costs are still huge. Given that the AI is very reluctant to trade technologies, is it deliberate that minor powers have essentially no access to technology? If so, why bother making them playable?

  2. #102
    grandpa's Avatar Elite Bytebumbler
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    Default Re: A Proper Empire: Terra Incognita v1.1.0 - Discussion and Suggestions

    Hi and welcome to the many splendid things about this Mod.
    The buildings and their effects do take awhile to show the results, however...dedicate yourself to improving infrastructure, and the buildings that go with them, roads, govt' buildings, mills and such, and I promise, you will find yourself with more gold than you can spend.

    To be truthful, the Mod team has been thinking of ways ( with input from the users) to tweak the game to reduce the massive money wash in mid game onward.

    Education costs are not figured into balance shown for income, and must be accounted for mentally, yet if as a small faction, with a school, you can choose to destroy it, or keep it, and first go for monetary improvement research to help afford it.

    I have tremendous success trading techs, and have even traded for Serbia once, by giving three techs to Austria.

    Work with it a little. I admit it is very challenging, yet very rewarding, when you give your faction time to mature.
    In my campaigns i typically play statesman, being very diplomatic and kind, for the first 30 turns or so.

    Then suddenly, i find myself having a very positive cash flow, able to afford anything anywhere, anytime.....and the world is my playground. You will find actually that the most challenging aspect will be the Manpower / Supply aspect.


    Lastly, the Mod was designed to be played on normal / normal, though there are many that boast of playing H/H....I have just never managed it personally.

    Hang in there and let us know of your success...we all like to hear about it.

    Cheers!

    "Work smart or be tuff", American Inventor Herbert Willaims. An amazing man. Inventor of the Openhydro Tidal energy machine, located in Orkney Islands. www.openhydro.com

    It doesn't cost a dime to be nice yet has the highest return
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  3. #103

    Default Re: A Proper Empire: Terra Incognita v1.1.0 - Discussion and Suggestions

    I've checked the values on a Normal difficulty level for a High Yield iron mine. It's 7500 for 105 region wealth; even in a developped province with higher taxes (~70%) this will take 103 turns to make a profit. If I spend the money on military units (and in the early game at least, all factions have an excess of manpower) there is simply no way that I won't be much, much better off 103 turns down the line. There's also a 1% bonus to wealth from Smiths, but I don't see any Smith building that generates the 143 wealth that would be needed for this to make 1 extra gold per turn, so you'll need multiple smiths for this to mean anything (and even then, it's still insignificant). Essentially it would be incredibly stupid to build Iron Mines, ever.

    Even if you're limited by manpower, you'll still get better results using the money to exploit the diplomacy (like the mod maker does in his "first few turns in APETI" thread, paying AI factions to become protectorates), or just saving it is likely to prove more useful. Again, the Iron Mine is a somewhat extreme example, but all economic investments are spectacularly ineffecient in the short and medium terms, which, given the constant fighting inherent to a TW, is what matters the most. Some of the growth generating buildings will give spectacular returns on investment over 200 turns, but what TW game lasts this long? The AI's behaviour will force you to win or lose before then.

    I still don't understand why you didn't simply remove the buildings if your intent is to reduce player income later in the game, unless you can disable the AI wasting money on them? Even then, I think it's pointless to have left the fixed wealth buildings in game.

    I do admit, I was very impressed by two claims in your post--being able to exchange technologies and especially 30 turns of peace, which is usually much harder to achieve in TW than winning the game, so much respect for being able to keep the AI peaceful so long. The difficulty setting may play a huge part in that, though; on H every faction I've tested (Denmark, France, Sweden, Portugal) is at war when turn 2 starts no matter what I do, and trading technology is very difficult--the AI places a very high value on its own tech but considers the player's technology to be worth very little.

    The problem is, if I can win the game just by building military units and Trading Ports--and I'm pretty certain I can, moreso on Medium--then this mod just makes the already boring campaign gameplay even more simple and 'arcade', despite the manpower and supply which I very much want to try.

  4. #104
    grandpa's Avatar Elite Bytebumbler
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    Default Re: A Proper Empire: Terra Incognita v1.1.0 - Discussion and Suggestions

    Regretfully I have nothing more to offer an alternative to what you say.
    Its unfortunate this Mod is not what you had in mind, or is not what could be expected.
    Many of us enjoy it immensely.
    We are always here to give you support if you wish.

    Best of luck to you.

    "Work smart or be tuff", American Inventor Herbert Willaims. An amazing man. Inventor of the Openhydro Tidal energy machine, located in Orkney Islands. www.openhydro.com

    It doesn't cost a dime to be nice yet has the highest return
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  5. #105
    l33tl4m3r's Avatar A Frakkin' Toaster
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    Default Re: A Proper Empire: Terra Incognita v1.1.0 - Discussion and Suggestions

    @Miaow Zedong

    Sorry the mod didn't work out for you!

    Good luck, hope you find something that works for you!
    [House of Caesars|Under the Patronage of Carl von Döbeln]

  6. #106

    Default Re: A Proper Empire: Terra Incognita v1.1.0 - Discussion and Suggestions

    I am very surprised... I never noticed that the buildings generated wealth and not direct tax... It does make more sense for them to contribute more wealth then... Because 20% of 750 is still only 146. Whereas the current 20% of 75 would be 15 tax per turn. Where starting wealth in a region from town wealth could easily be 1400 or more. Meaning here is actually no reason to buy those buildings... Unless there is some other effect that they give?

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  7. #107
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    Default Re: A Proper Empire: Terra Incognita v1.1.0 - Discussion and Suggestions

    I've noticed that there are some added units, unlocked via technology and other such means, that I can't seem to find.

    Tarleton's Dragoons
    Hessian Grenadiers
    Brunswicker Dragoons
    Brunswicker Grenadiers
    Royal Welch Fusiliers
    And some Croatian guys

    Are these units part of APE:TI?
    Or are they a new add-on I need to buy through Steam and for some reason I can see them in things like the bonuses that technology grant but I can't recruit them
    If these are APE:TI added units where can I recruit them? I can't find them anywhere and so therefore I don't know what to build.

    I notice that there are Scots in America and can be recruited in Scotland also.
    There are also Free Catalonia Company in America.
    Another unit, the Swiss Guard, can only be recruited when a Coaching Inn is built.
    Are these also APE: TI?

    Another question, but this is in regards to Manpower & Supply.
    Is it directly linked to farms? Or can I build up Manpower & Supply by other means also?
    The limit in America is reached farily easily and it's a little hard to get back ontop and maintain the technological increase in armies whilst going to war with indians at the same time.

  8. #108
    grandpa's Avatar Elite Bytebumbler
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    Default Re: A Proper Empire: Terra Incognita v1.1.0 - Discussion and Suggestions

    Hi Green Jacket
    Do you have AUM added to the Mod?
    Sounds like it. If so, check out Swiss Halberdiers page here in the sub-forum, and you should find answers to the units you are seeing.

    Manpower/supply.

    Buildings / actions that improve population growth will increase manpower. Such as Bawdy houses, Churches, low taxes, farms, fishing ports)

    Supply would be affected by industrial / farm capabilities...and time.

    As Great britian, or anyother european faction, interested in North and South America, will require a few generations to develope the land and cities capable of recruiting significant numbers.
    Its truly reality right? If you think about what obstacles and challenges the pioneers faced coming to the western hemisphere...it was a true challenge.

    Keep shipping them from Europe Until approximately 1750 or so, and the you should be able to hold your own, manpower / supply wise.
    The good part is, everytime you ship them out of the European Theatre, (lets say you ship out 1200 troops)you will be able to recruit 1200 more in the european theatre. However, you will kill the manpower recruitment in the theatre you travel to.

    India does not take near as long to get up to speed though, obviously due to the population there.
    Hope you are having fun.

    Cheers

    "Work smart or be tuff", American Inventor Herbert Willaims. An amazing man. Inventor of the Openhydro Tidal energy machine, located in Orkney Islands. www.openhydro.com

    It doesn't cost a dime to be nice yet has the highest return
    on investment. grandpa

  9. #109
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    Default Re: A Proper Empire: Terra Incognita v1.1.0 - Discussion and Suggestions

    Thanks for the reply grandpa. I am not playing with AUM, I found that they had far too many units to choose from and it made it difficult for me when creating armies.
    I'm pretty sure there are some added units in APE: TI though, the ones I mentioned. APE: TI has re-arranged the tech tree and it's from there that I notice some tech unlocks various units. For example; Cadenced Marching unlocks Royal Welch Fusiliers, but I can't find where to recruit them.

  10. #110
    l33tl4m3r's Avatar A Frakkin' Toaster
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    Default Re: A Proper Empire: Terra Incognita v1.1.0 - Discussion and Suggestions

    The only two units you've mentioned that are added by the mod are the Free Company and Swiss Mercenaries.

    The other units you are seeing, I am pretty sure, are from one of the unit DLCs, though I'd have to look to tell you which.

    Edit:

    Here;
    http://www.totalwar.com/empire/elite-units/
    http://www.totalwar.com/empire/elite-units/?unit=east
    http://www.totalwar.com/empire/elite.../?unit=america

    ...should be all the units you are looking for, where they are recruited, and what techs may be needed.
    Last edited by l33tl4m3r; October 06, 2011 at 10:20 PM.
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  11. #111
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    Default Re: A Proper Empire: Terra Incognita v1.1.0 - Discussion and Suggestions

    I see now. It seems I need elite units of America in order to get the units I have mentioned.
    It seems pretty unfair to be able to see them in the tech tree as being unlockable yet I need to pay for them to actually be able to use them.
    I know it's only aboyt $5 extra but it was so much of a hassle to organise someone to pay for the elite units of the West I can't be bothered going through that again and with mods like AUM there's really no point.

    Thanks for clearing that up for me.
    This is a great mod.

  12. #112
    l33tl4m3r's Avatar A Frakkin' Toaster
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    Default Re: A Proper Empire: Terra Incognita v1.1.0 - Discussion and Suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Jacket View Post
    I see now. It seems I need elite units of America in order to get the units I have mentioned.
    It seems pretty unfair to be able to see them in the tech tree as being unlockable yet I need to pay for them to actually be able to use them.
    I know it's only aboyt $5 extra but it was so much of a hassle to organise someone to pay for the elite units of the West I can't be bothered going through that again and with mods like AUM there's really no point.

    Thanks for clearing that up for me.
    This is a great mod.
    You being able to see them might be caused by the mod as we use the complete tech tree and localization from Empire with all the DLC.

    An unfortunate side-effect!

    Glad you are enjoying the mod, let us know if you have any other questions!
    [House of Caesars|Under the Patronage of Carl von Döbeln]

  13. #113
    Dago Red's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: A Proper Empire: Terra Incognita v1.1.0 - Discussion and Suggestions

    I was about to post that I was missing units from the US roster (having just finally updated to the latest release last night after ignoring ETW for a long time) -- saw theLegion of the United States unit as a result of light infantry doctrine, which I researched and then could not find in any city to actually recruit. Such a tease. But with AUM+Ornamentum it isn't such a loss.

    The only thing sorely lacking are some good, realistic, native American units and Ottoman/other Eastern units. Are there any sub mods compatible with APE:TI that include more diverse unit pools, or are those DLC's such as http://www.totalwar.com/empire/elite-units/?unit=east the way to get them?

  14. #114
    ODaly's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: A Proper Empire: Terra Incognita v1.1.0 - Discussion and Suggestions

    A couple months ago, someone had mentioned they were going to do a bit of roster-filling for the Islamic nations, but I don't think that went anywhere. You could try checking the board dedicated to new units, but I don't think there's anything for APE:TI aside from AUM.

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  15. #115
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    Default Re: A Proper Empire: Terra Incognita v1.1.0 - Discussion and Suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by l33tl4m3r View Post
    You being able to see them might be caused by the mod as we use the complete tech tree and localization from Empire with all the DLC.

    An unfortunate side-effect!

    Glad you are enjoying the mod, let us know if you have any other questions!
    Oh, so that's why! Well that makes sense.
    I only ever got the Elite Units of the West DLC for HMS Victory.

    Just one more thing. When I went to trade tech with Prussia they have a tech called "Advanced Skirmishing". Is this also added by a DLC? I don't see it on my tech tree nor the Prussian one when I loaded a game as Prussia just to see the tech tree.

  16. #116

    Default Re: A Proper Empire: Terra Incognita v1.1.0 - Discussion and Suggestions

    Can you guys please justify the immense cost of building a school? It costs 10000 net to build, takes 7 turns and costs 3000 a turn. This just seems rather silly, unless you want to make research only be reserved for extremely wealthy factions ahich don't need to defend themselves (can't think of many...)

    Also, is there any historical basis for the Risker of Souls berserker Ottoman unit? At 17 attack and 16 morale, I don't think they have any human equivalents in the game...

    I just tested the mod and those are my two gripes. It looks fantastic though, combining good AI and campaign realism.


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  17. #117
    l33tl4m3r's Avatar A Frakkin' Toaster
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    Default Re: A Proper Empire: Terra Incognita v1.1.0 - Discussion and Suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Archon Musa View Post
    Can you guys please justify the immense cost of building a school? It costs 10000 net to build, takes 7 turns and costs 3000 a turn. This just seems rather silly, unless you want to make research only be reserved for extremely wealthy factions ahich don't need to defend themselves (can't think of many...)
    Sure, I can easily justify them. First, go through and add up all the cost reductions (for units, buildings, etc.) the tech tree gives you and then compare that to the cost of the schools. Then go through and weigh the benefit of the new units it provides. Then go through and consider the combat bonuses. Then look at any of the other bonuses you gain from research.

    Now, in vanilla, this was all free. It just took time and there was no need to decide WHAT to research, just build as many schools as possible and gain many many bonuses for nothing more than a small cost to build the schools.

    In APE: TI you have to weigh WHAT you want to research and plan around it. Yes it takes time, yes it costs money but the cost/benefit is now more balanced.

    I have researched the entire tech tree with most every faction in the game, so the school costs are capable of being handled by every nation I've played. It just takes some time and planning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archon Musa View Post
    Also, is there any historical basis for the Risker of Souls berserker Ottoman unit? At 17 attack and 16 morale, I don't think they have any human equivalents in the game...
    Not a unit APE: TI added, simply a unit we unlocked then changed certain stats on to bring in to line with the other unit stat changes we've made.
    [House of Caesars|Under the Patronage of Carl von Döbeln]

  18. #118

    Default Re: A Proper Empire: Terra Incognita v1.1.0 - Discussion and Suggestions

    Well I guess I was rash to instantly build one as Venice then I guess I should try to build up my economy massively then build a school, although I might end up far behind other nations. Thanks for the info


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  19. #119
    grandpa's Avatar Elite Bytebumbler
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    Default Re: A Proper Empire: Terra Incognita v1.1.0 - Discussion and Suggestions

    Hey Archon Musa, welcome to APE:TI. I wanted to add a little experience I've had with Venice.
    Venice is a great financial power potentially, and may I suggest to take a large sum of doh, and trade for a few techs. Once you have a couple techs, start trading two for one. Then get enough techs, and trade techs for land.
    I have found it very feasible, and an added challenge. I have found myself teched up to date, and plus NewFoundland, simply from Tech trading, when I had no school.

    Try it, it really works. Plus not only that, by 1750 you will be so filthy rich, you can build and support two, and I have had as many as four schools.

    I hope to hear how you made out.

    Cheers!

    "Work smart or be tuff", American Inventor Herbert Willaims. An amazing man. Inventor of the Openhydro Tidal energy machine, located in Orkney Islands. www.openhydro.com

    It doesn't cost a dime to be nice yet has the highest return
    on investment. grandpa

  20. #120

    Default Re: A Proper Empire: Terra Incognita v1.1.0 - Discussion and Suggestions

    Thanks for the advice, I'll give it a shot


    Under the patronage of the formidable and lovely Narf.

    Proud patron of Derpy Hooves, Audacia, Lordsith, Frodo45127 and Sir Adrian.

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