[Update 2019/08/11 V 5.6!] The Historical Units Region Buildings Mod! (6 New Factions/ Units/ Map / Buildings)

[napoleonic]

Yeah unfortunately this part is pretty much out of the current engine's limitation, but yes it would be awesome to have a parley option.

I forget to say that bellum crucis allowed it via scripting

[RollingWave]

interesting, I wonder how they got around that... I guess I can see some possible methods though...


many regions now will start out a lot more complicated, with a lot of crossholdings making things a lot more interesting, for example Byzantiums will not have all of the Bulgarian province under there control, a few of the PSF will be rebel and in some cases pretty strong onces. it will however have very limited holdings in some other provinces ... (such as holding Skopje and small parts of the Thema of Sirmium ) Venice may hold some of the adriatic PSFs etc... these should make for interesting diplomatic situations in general. the Thema of Sirmium region (capital at Nis) espeically will be a hugely complicated zone as Byzantiums / Hungarians / Serbians will all likely hold at least a small piece of the region... which will start as rebel.

[RollingWave]

I'd like to discuss again a bit of the illustration of more generic western factions (aka England / France / HRE) in HURB, since admittedly thats a huge weakspot right now making the mod something of a "eastern mod" so to speak where it massively expand the representation of Orthodox and Muslim factions but make very limited update to Catholic onces, that is not my intention, though it is clear that the former 2 were much less well represented than the late to begin with, so they are going to recieve much stronger attention, however that is not to say that I do not really wish to improve the western factions as well.

A few ideas to consider...

A. Knights , especially in France, should be seperated to Barbacon and Feudal, which sort of seperates the difference in obligation, Feudal units being those serving their feudal obligation, while Barbacon once (a word that eventually turned to mean Mercenary but was not in the same sense as the Free Companies) represent similar units that's serving either past their due obligation or never had obligations under you to begin with.

B. HRE, right now the Free Cities don't come with much of a roster, which is actually wrong, because they in reality often provided HRE emperors with rather large troops, the City of Worms for example VERY COMMONLY threw around THOUSANDS of militia on campaigns (which is enormous considering that Worms' population is not actuallyth thtat high, it meant that most of their able men were being mobilized), espeically north of the Alps. more interestingly and a real unique aspect for the HRE is that those cities OFTEN RAISED THEIR OWN SIEGE ENGINGES, where as in most places most monarchs would obviously keep siege engines a clear royal monopoly, but it was not so in Germany, where even in city to city conflicts or infighting within the city catapults and other siege engines were thrown around.

So I think the idea is that Free Cities should be able to build catapults and ballistas by defualt, that would be a reallly interesting approach and almost instantly changes the dynamics of the HRE roster greatly. since espeically in HURB actually getting to catapults is not so easy, the advantage of having fairly easy accessive to them would be a huge game changer. and yet also highly historically realistic.

C. Byznatium: I'm going to split up the Byznatium recruitment further down to Thematic and Pronoia troops , to more properly reflect the difficulties the Byznatiums face, in general the Thematic troops will take longer to train and establish, but the Thema is relatively better administrative method, where as the Pronoia will give you a easier quick fix on the need of the military but will be considerablly more of a burden in the longer run economically.

Any other ideas are highly welcomed, though I'd generally appreciate one backed by a strong sourced arguement. such as say... the article on the german one in this is the one I base the HRE concept around.

Mercenaries and Paid Men: The Mercenary Identity in the Middle Ages ...

[beermugcarl]

Yes- if there is victory condition in an enemy faction or the death of enemy faction that AI is less likely to agree to peace or much diplomacy and will sometimes pursue a certain faction while being killed by another faction. Also all the Catholics had Jerusalem as a victory condition... a bit weird I think and also I wonder if it contributes to almost all joining Crusades. Most join Crusade even on other targets but are more likely to leave or not join so I removed it as a victory condition from all but HRE and France.

Tried to make the eliminate enemy faction conditions more reasonable but it will require testing. I'm next testing victory conditions being simply, "capture 60 regions" with no specific regions required to see if AI acts more reasonably or if that is too random and AI does better given at least a few regions to chase after.

i think you may be on to something there with crusades

the way i did it when messing around with things was to encourage naval invasions of certain areas i exploited the victory conditions (i believe not many people play to them these days anymore and i dont think that what i did was too out of line anyway)

for example - norway to take inverness. plus a psf in the isles actually does see them invading
denmark - to take nottingham plus a psf in east anglia (i believe with the start date of early campaigns that is OK)

france for london and turning on naval (i know historical nothing but this is all about 'what if' scenarios and france did THREATEN to invade allot when england lost its french land as well as actually landing in wales (though it was a hilarious failure http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fishguard))

anyway point is with these additions britain gets invaded fairly often

the same can be applied elsewhere of course with encouraging naval invasion of greece for Sicily and venice

[beermugcarl]

im sorry but i love that battle so much...the french landed and found wine in that just recently been imported so got ragingly drunk then when the english forces arived they just found a whole load of wasted frenchmen...

[RollingWave]

hahah, that's a good one.

Yeah I'd like to see how win conditions should change.probably more simply in the lines of holding it's core territories than expanding to other people's territory would help the AI make more historically realistic choices...

[napoleonic]

+adjusting the AI mental (that stalin, mao thingy) may also be good

but on a note though, this is still a game and unpredictability will always feel good, for example in my current campaign genoa is destroyed in <40 turns and the AI HRE is expanding rather freely in italy instead of getting crushed from all sides like usual...

making AI factions too predictable will ruin the game...

[RollingWave]

This .... is.....

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

(technically, in the middle ages it was probably more commonly known as Lacedaemon, though the old name was probably still valid as well)

[beermugcarl]

the ai will always be unpredictable just the victory conditions give the ai slight prods in a direction, if you look at the values its not even that high. it just helps.

but yes when i was fiddling i noticed that if you give the ai lots of cities to hold in conditions then the garrison better but it seemed that if you put more than 4 cities then they just dont like to go war

but yes anyway they can be quite good for influence.

england should be - london, nottingham, dublin, bordeaux
60 provinces
destroy scotland

scotland should be - edinburgh, bergen, arhus (riibe), dublin
60 provinces
destroy england

so what this does is encourages england to garrison london and nottingham while always LOOKING to take dublin and bordeaux (LOOKING TO, ie it keeps random because they dont march to it, just keep a 'beady eye' on it)

and encourages them to keep the theoretical beady eye on scotland

scotlands more difficult to think of but i like to encourage them to branch out a bit but whatever

i found in my tests that with a nice diplomacy ai then you can start everyone on neutralish relations so the anglo-scot relation on a poor not the terrible that it starts out on these days

but as it currently stands i really dont like the diplomacy ai in stainless, i always use mine but mine is untested outside of myself

[napoleonic]

This .... is.....

(technically, in the middle ages it was probably more commonly known as Lacedaemon, though the old name was probably still valid as well)

where are the georgians and the armenians in your game? I see you have already changed the kwarez to turks and the seljuk to rum

[RollingWave]

yeah, i'll get them in soon enough.

[Ichon]

I guess you are just playing around with Sparta. Mystra was a different settlement some 20 miles NW of ancient Sparta and the medieval center that region of Greece.

Mercenaries or Barbacon's etc definitely played a larger and larger role in wars of the medieval era as time passed. How to portray them in MTW2 is a bit more difficult- are you just adding merc tag and making them available in wider region or?

HRE and Free Cities is a good idea- overall how HRE is shown could probably be changed and Free Cities along with your idea about freezing movement of generals is a great start. I've been thinking to make the generals able to gain traits and ancillaries that give significant income boost as governors so that between the famines, plagues, war inflation, and overall much higher upkeep of units it makes it almost essential to have generals as governors but in times of low authority/crisis those guys stay in place to defend their own lands rather than obeying the weak authority of the FL.

The AI does respond to win conditions enough that I do find it useful for making AI behave a bit more historically. I haven't tried getting France to invade England specifically but conditions do require elimination of England but France was usually easily distracted from that goal historically so I didn't make specific regions in the Isles required to be conquered. Maybe I'll test that though. England requires the Plantagenet empire and death of France but not the death of Scotland(historically England did not view Scottish lands as worth the trouble of pacifying directly after Welsh proved so troublesome but policy rested more on putting a Scottish ruler in power who was friendly with England.

Scotland I had put only the death of England and the capture of Caernavon, Dublin, and York required. The thought of a Scottish fleet sailing to Norway implausible for me. I did require for Norway to capture Inverness, Dublin and Edinburgh but not to eliminate any particular faction. Denmark I tried to focus east so capture of Riga, Reval, and Turku but not the elimination of any faction along with of course 50 regions so the AI has some discretion of when to fight as eliminating certain faction often seems to send the AI into death spiral where it ignores its other borders trying to kill one faction.

I hadn't noticed that putting more than 4 regions made the AI reluctant to go to war. ERE currently has by far the most required to hold regions and it still goes to war fairly frequently. That might interesting to test because some of the larger factions it makes sense they don't want to start wars unnecessarily as simply waiting they will get attack by neighbors. HRE for example I made only to require the death of Poland and capture of Bohemia and N Italy but not the death of Milan etc.

[Andytheplatypus]

Are you going to change the siege time on PSF so that its longer than 3 turns?

[Ichon]

Are you going to change the siege time on PSF so that its longer than 3 turns?

I hope not... that is the perfect amount of time to me. Just long enough that its tempting to wait out the siege but not so long doing so is completely waste of efficiency.

If PSF only gives 100-400 income at most and laying siege with half stack army that costs 3,000 in upkeep that is 9,000 cost to wait 3 turns. If the siege assault causes retraining of 4 units at a cost of 2,000 plus the 3-4 turns transit of 3,600 in upkeep then its 5,600 vs 9,000. Cheaper to siege if you trust in siege being relatively low cost. Otherwise making the siege take longer it never is a question of which is more efficient unless costs for armies are significantly raised while upkeep is raised a bit lower which I actually do favor.

I'm looking at most cavalry costing 1200-3000 in cost and 500-1400 in upkeep and infantry more often 1000-1800 in cost with 250-700 in upkeep which is about 4x current costs. At least based on 6.4 economy.

[beermugcarl]

i didnt mean that it made them less agressive just that the wanted effect was lessened (because the ai is keeping its beady eye on too many things)
imagine if you made every city a win condition for instance - then the effect would be not noticeable

[RollingWave]

Are you going to change the siege time on PSF so that its longer than 3 turns?

I think this part might be hard coded anyway, I tried alternating some of the possibly relavent factors but it doesn't change the siege duration.

I guess you are just playing around with Sparta. Mystra was a different settlement some 20 miles NW of ancient Sparta and the medieval center that region of Greece.

http://www.greeka.com/peloponnese/my...as-history.htm

except that Mystra wasn't in existence in 1100..... though for a 1390 map yes it should replace Sparta.

Mercenaries or Barbacon's etc definitely played a larger and larger role in wars of the medieval era as time passed. How to portray them in MTW2 is a bit more difficult- are you just adding merc tag and making them available in wider region or?

I'm undecided, though I do think i might just merge the whole AOR into the Merceanries section (it makes life easier for me anyway in terms of the EDB) . the Barbacon onces will have the merc tag while the fedual onces won't (only really relavent in the sense of banners though, but also means you can have different pricing and slightly different mental stats)

HRE and Free Cities is a good idea- overall how HRE is shown could probably be changed and Free Cities along with your idea about freezing movement of generals is a great start. I've been thinking to make the generals able to gain traits and ancillaries that give significant income boost as governors so that between the famines, plagues, war inflation, and overall much higher upkeep of units it makes it almost essential to have generals as governors but in times of low authority/crisis those guys stay in place to defend their own lands rather than obeying the weak authority of the FL.

Yeah though this would need to be a rather thorough project :/

The AI does respond to win conditions enough that I do find it useful for making AI behave a bit more historically. I haven't tried getting France to invade England specifically but conditions do require elimination of England but France was usually easily distracted from that goal historically so I didn't make specific regions in the Isles required to be conquered. Maybe I'll test that though. England requires the Plantagenet empire and death of France but not the death of Scotland(historically England did not view Scottish lands as worth the trouble of pacifying directly after Welsh proved so troublesome but policy rested more on putting a Scottish ruler in power who was friendly with England.

Scotland I had put only the death of England and the capture of Caernavon, Dublin, and York required. The thought of a Scottish fleet sailing to Norway implausible for me. I did require for Norway to capture Inverness, Dublin and Edinburgh but not to eliminate any particular faction. Denmark I tried to focus east so capture of Riga, Reval, and Turku but not the elimination of any faction along with of course 50 regions so the AI has some discretion of when to fight as eliminating certain faction often seems to send the AI into death spiral where it ignores its other borders trying to kill one faction.

I hadn't noticed that putting more than 4 regions made the AI reluctant to go to war. ERE currently has by far the most required to hold regions and it still goes to war fairly frequently. That might interesting to test because some of the larger factions it makes sense they don't want to start wars unnecessarily as simply waiting they will get attack by neighbors. HRE for example I made only to require the death of Poland and capture of Bohemia and N Italy but not the death of Milan etc.

I mostly removed the eliminate faction thing except for a few cases where there was almost never peace between the two side.. like say Sicily / Byzantium or Moors / Iberian factions . England and Scotland actually wasn't ALWAYS at war. and even in the case of eliminating faction it's usually only one direction and not both.. so Byznatiums need to kill Sicily but not vice versa for example. also larger factions should have much tougher conditions, like the ERE's condtion should require them to at least recreate the Justinian borders...

[Slaytaninc]

This is looking to be as awesome as DotS.

[Ichon]

I mostly removed the eliminate faction thing except for a few cases where there was almost never peace between the two side.. like say Sicily / Byzantium or Moors / Iberian factions . England and Scotland actually wasn't ALWAYS at war. and even in the case of eliminating faction it's usually only one direction and not both.. so Byznatiums need to kill Sicily but not vice versa for example. also larger factions should have much tougher conditions, like the ERE's condtion should require them to at least recreate the Justinian borders...

Well Mystras was more important than Sparta within the time period but I get caught up with the different mods and forgot you start in 1100 not 1132 and you decided on earlier end date.

Funny that we are mostly thinking alike about the win conditions. I set mine almost exactly the same. I find the 1 direction eliminate more realistic as not all factions were consumed but the larger factions or ones with greatest claims had more to prove against interlopers so ERE vs Normans or HRE vs Poland along with the historical enemies of France vs England which took centuries to resolve similar to Iberia and Lithuania vs Polish and Rus.

[RollingWave]

Well Mystras was more important than Sparta within the time period but I get caught up with the different mods and forgot you start in 1100 not 1132 and you decided on earlier end date.

Funny that we are mostly thinking alike about the win conditions. I set mine almost exactly the same. I find the 1 direction eliminate more realistic as not all factions were consumed but the larger factions or ones with greatest claims had more to prove against interlopers so ERE vs Normans or HRE vs Poland along with the historical enemies of France vs England which took centuries to resolve similar to Iberia and Lithuania vs Polish and Rus.

Well our methodology is similar to the conclusion reached is usaully not far apart

Was HRE really out to eliminate Poland and Poland of Lithuania though? for the most part there were as much coperation between them as fighting. espeically Poland and Lithuania.. as Poland's war were largely against the Prussians anyway.

right now my elimination list is basically

ERE : Sicily (but they have an increadiablly difficult list of region to conquer including Granada / Rome / Milan / Palmero etc.. essentially the full restoration of the Justinian Relam)

Moors : all 3 Iberian faction

Seljuqs : Rum, Jerusalem

Fatimids : Jerusalem

Abbasids : Fatimids (given the Abbasids really favorable starting city and diplomatic situation... I ask them to restore the core Rashidun realm which is actually not that easy)

HRE I'm really not sure about.. wouldn't France be a better elmination target given that they both kinda claim as the legitimate heir of Charlemagne? though that HRE have to take Rome should already be quite a task for them.

BTW I remember you wrote but I can't find right now.. how do I set the condition for "holding region for xx turns" in win condition? since I'd think the really hard part for the HRE condition actually should be to hold Rome for a significant period of time.

[Slaytaninc]

I have my own mod to worry about, but I want to learn how to make unit cards, and I noticed a lot of yours need work. Mind if I try my hand at a few?