Thread: [Update 2019/08/11 V 5.6!] The Historical Units Region Buildings Mod! (6 New Factions/ Units/ Map / Buildings)

  1. #2201
    beermugcarl's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: [V 4.0!] The Historical Units Region Buildings Mod! (2 New Factions/ Units/ Map / Buildings) Update 4/23

    thats how its meant to be.
    (correct me if im wrong rw)

  2. #2202
    RollingWave's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: [V 4.0!] The Historical Units Region Buildings Mod! (2 New Factions/ Units/ Map / Buildings) Update 4/23

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Harv View Post
    started a campaign as the fatimids and none of the units were available for recruitment for 10 or more turns. Downloaded the latest version on the front page.
    yeah, this is intentional because previous playing experience showed that if you start everything's pool at 1 instead of 0 you'd basically have unholy amount of army running around given how many units I made avalible.
    Last edited by RollingWave; April 26, 2012 at 08:29 PM.
    1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....

  3. #2203
    RollingWave's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: [V 4.0!] The Historical Units Region Buildings Mod! (2 New Factions/ Units/ Map / Buildings) Update 4/23

    some potential ideas to throw around, if I incorperate the PSFs I'd probably do some additional regional changes, and of course a lot of research is needed for the potential PSF placements, I'd think DOTS' 2000+ PSF is too insane but something within the 800-1000 range seems plausible...

    First regional change that immediately comes to mind would be to remove the Yelabulga region and make Volga Bulgaria just one region, the region I want instead would be Alania (the region just north of the Caucasus mountains).

    Volga Bulgaria would have quite a few PSFs though, due to the fact that it's very big and also because historically they had at least a few notable towns.

    For Example

    Volga Bulgaria

    Capital : Bolghar
    Additioanl PSFs

    a good portions of these + Yelabulga
    1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....

  4. #2204

    Default Re: [V 4.0!] The Historical Units Region Buildings Mod! (2 New Factions/ Units/ Map / Buildings) Update 4/23

    RW, is there any way I can get v 3.2?

  5. #2205

    Default Re: [V 4.0!] The Historical Units Region Buildings Mod! (2 New Factions/ Units/ Map / Buildings) Update 4/23

    RW did you read my last post about baltic units not being local? and the thing I mentioned from bellum crucis? what's your opinion on those?

  6. #2206
    RollingWave's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: [V 4.0!] The Historical Units Region Buildings Mod! (2 New Factions/ Units/ Map / Buildings) Update 4/23

    Quote Originally Posted by napoleonic View Post
    RW did you read my last post about baltic units not being local? and the thing I mentioned from bellum crucis? what's your opinion on those?
    Baltic Units: it's just a matter of description, which is simply a text file, you could type whatever you like there and it doesn't make a difference.

    Bellum Crucis Model : it's plausible but the problem as always is that writing the EDB is a very very time consuming and complex matter.
    1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....

  7. #2207

    Default Re: [V 4.0!] The Historical Units Region Buildings Mod! (2 New Factions/ Units/ Map / Buildings) Update 4/23

    Really 800-1000? Wow. Are you planning on all of those to be able to produce income? If it were maybe 600 IE 3 per province I could see additional income but otherwise it will be a lot of empty structures. Have you thought of making some of the economies vastly different? Cumans/steppes have very cheap AOR units with a very few units that can travel with the faction or even better none are recruitable but can be retrained to show the relatively lower manpower and specialized skills. Hybrid cultures like Khwarezmians would have a bit of both economies with the more expensive Arab and Persian units able to travel over a much wider area/AOR. European units could be relatively cheap low and mid tier feudal units with early pro and elite units being substantially more expensive as such units were more often mercenaries/professional warriors but have wider AOR. ERE, some others could be relatively expensive and slow pool fill units but have the widest area of recruitment. So this way a steppe civ with only 3-4 really large regions and a few PSF's could still have a large army(due to cheap units) but not be so worthwhile to conquer by others while also in the initial expansion such a civ would be able to become quite rich relatively but soon run into problems expanding unable to recruit core armies outside the steppes and only retrain.

  8. #2208
    RollingWave's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: [V 4.0!] The Historical Units Region Buildings Mod! (2 New Factions/ Units/ Map / Buildings) Update 4/23

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichon View Post
    Really 800-1000? Wow. Are you planning on all of those to be able to produce income? If it were maybe 600 IE 3 per province I could see additional income but otherwise it will be a lot of empty structures. Have you thought of making some of the economies vastly different? Cumans/steppes have very cheap AOR units with a very few units that can travel with the faction or even better none are recruitable but can be retrained to show the relatively lower manpower and specialized skills. Hybrid cultures like Khwarezmians would have a bit of both economies with the more expensive Arab and Persian units able to travel over a much wider area/AOR. European units could be relatively cheap low and mid tier feudal units with early pro and elite units being substantially more expensive as such units were more often mercenaries/professional warriors but have wider AOR. ERE, some others could be relatively expensive and slow pool fill units but have the widest area of recruitment. So this way a steppe civ with only 3-4 really large regions and a few PSF's could still have a large army(due to cheap units) but not be so worthwhile to conquer by others while also in the initial expansion such a civ would be able to become quite rich relatively but soon run into problems expanding unable to recruit core armies outside the steppes and only retrain.

    This is of course, an extremely early idea purposal (I have no intention of implementing it until at least I finish adding Georgia / Armenia), how the economic factor plays out will really take significant actual testing to be sure. I'd hope that DoTS come up soon so we have a better sample of how this could potentiall work.

    I think the basic concept though is not that the actually produce money by themself, it's that..

    A. they have a few free upkeep slot (2-3? sort of representing a fiefdom), which obviously is already an economic benifit in itself. It probably promote keeping more units speard out at home, while making war cost considerablly higher.

    B. running a script so that named characters ending their turn there gets a small money bonus (representing the governor of a small settlement so to speak, I think 100-200 is reasonable. it is very doable to set different money for different point, so historically significant towns maybe a bit more while small forts a lot less etc.)

    C. of course, the problem is actually LOSING those settlements. which probably would create permenent devastation / turmoil problem for you until retaken.

    As for number of forts, the 800-1000 is a random number thrown out, probably won't be that many IMHO, I don't want them to really totally crowd the map or anything, but representing significantly notable towns / castles / forts. I'm guessing on average 1-2 for smaller province and 3-5 for bigger onces (of course, some might have none, like Palma / Visby..) in this thought process then on average we probably see something more in the 500-600 range of PSFs


    for example Sicily, currently with 2 province, I think right now 3 very reasonable PSF to put in would be Messina / Catania / Malta with Malta being a castle while the other two being towns (though Catania could go either way.) .

    Of course, it's going to be an epic research work to actually come up with all the proper places to put in....

    My guess is that the Russia / Ukrain area would see the province with the most PSF per region since those provinces are typically really REALLY big. and it's not too hard to find some extra notable Russian towns during that period, even for the Cuman region you could find some (for example Sarai / Atil /Balanjar yeah those Khanzar settlements may have been destroyed / close to gone by then but it's debatable)
    1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....

  9. #2209

    Default Re: [V 4.0!] The Historical Units Region Buildings Mod! (2 New Factions/ Units/ Map / Buildings) Update 4/23

    What would you base PSF on? Because I would want to go with population where France could have 20 cities above 10,000 by 1200 while Italy would have 20 cities above 20,000 while England might have only 5 cities above 10,000 and places like Norway only 2- then Kiev could get 6 or 7 above 20,000 which would be the regional capitols with another dozen above 10,000 as PSF. That would make Italy look really, really crowded but probably be more historical where the campaigns there were very long due to the number of fortified places that had to be captured and really no power was every able to conquer even a majority of Italy. If perhaps the PSF icon could be changed? Right now it takes about 10 square miles compared to map size. The huge cities are taking about 20 square miles or more. If the PSF ZoC were carefully placed in the crowed regions such as Italy or Northern France, central Spain, Wales, etc it could be a real long campaign to try and capture those regions and maybe even not always worth it.

    If generals brought in 100-200 I might be tempted but I think higher bonus would be better with occasionally generals lapsing into rebellion left alone too long in their fief and either refusing to pay taxes or going over to the Slave faction. If the money bonus was 200-500 depending on ancillary/traits (higher titles like Count vs Baron = more money) then it would be interesting dynamic- leave the general in PSF or put him in the field? At only 200 there is very little incentive since that is 1/3 the cost of an HC. The bonus should at least be around the cost of an HC which the general represent militarily.

    I have learned alot more about medieval economy and renaissance prices preparing 1390 and its quite interesting but results in an economy vastly different from current SS. For example I've decreased quality of most noble units greatly since the lower nobles were often rather sparingly equipped and the nobles often surrendered easily expecting ransom whereas the lower caste sergeants would fight to the death as they are unlikely to be ransomed and would be killed anyway if they are captured. So nobles still have better equipment than lower tiers but the difference is much smaller while their morale is the same or less than experienced lower tier soldiers although militias and low tier units have even a bit lower morale where really only they will be effective led by a good general. The BG represents the higher nobles and royal family with the most important nobles often in the retinue of the royals so they would have the best equipment(until rise of the great companies where the huge amounts of loot, extortion, and ransoms allowed mercenaries to afford the armor of kings)but the BG would also have high morale as defending the royal/duke etc in his masters view mattered not only for honor but a noble surrendering too quickly risked his family lands and wealth not to mention could be denied ransom(actually happened a few times) by order of his lord. Also sergeants tended to be more experienced than the nobles in whose service they were... often a sergeant served the family of a noble while the actual noble might only experience 2-3 campaigns(unless he was a real elite called upon often by a King or Duke whose incomes and vast lands led to nearly constant battles of some sort) but the sergeant would be campaigning nearly constantly so the actual costs and reliability are a bit different than portrayed in current SS.

    Similarly the cities in Italy were not just a little richer than towns further north but 100s of times richer. The annual revenues of the government of Venice and Florence surpassed those of the King of France who had the highest revenues of any royal in Europe aside for briefly the King of Hungary(when gold mines first opened). However supply and demand meant that while Venice and Florence could spend 2-3 times the money of the King of France there was a much higher cost of living in Italy and consequently military expenses were doubly higher- first by loss of the taxes paid by a militia going into the field and secondly by the competition between cities for the services of mercenaries whose manpower was actually surprisingly limited given the potential riches available mostly due to mercenaries dying in battle or of sickness or in 2-3 seasons of campaigning leaving Italy to return to their place of origin as relatively rich men and the fact that mercenaries were held in low repute until the mid Renaissance when many Italian, French, and Spanish nobility took up the profession.

  10. #2210

    Default Re: [V 4.0!] The Historical Units Region Buildings Mod! (2 New Factions/ Units/ Map / Buildings) Update 4/23

    The annual revenues of the government of Venice and Florence surpassed those of the King of France who had the highest revenues of any royal in Europe aside for briefly the King of Hungary(when gold mines first opened).
    Wow.

    Out of curiosity, could the same be said of say, the Andalusian cities or the Holy Lands in their respective economic heights?

  11. #2211
    RollingWave's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: [V 4.0!] The Historical Units Region Buildings Mod! (2 New Factions/ Units/ Map / Buildings) Update 4/23

    Population factor will obviously be taken in, but unforunately some pratical factor have to be accounted for as well, you can only fit so many forts .. and forts take up 3x3 pixle .. so obviously limitations will exist. Though I agree that Italy should have more, but they already have very crowded provinces in the north already .. how many can I possible put in without some ridiculas results?

    My current map in terms of Italian cities north of Rome (includnig) are

    Rome / Venice / Genoa / Milan / Bologna / Florence / Pisa / Verona / Triestie / Nice /Ancona. That's already 11 settlements, how many more could be realistically squeeze in? unfortunately half of those provinces are really small in terms of pixile and at best I think 1 PSF could be placed, Milan / Rome / Ancona's bigger but the east side of Italy wasn't quite as packed IIRC, while my guess is something in the 5-6 range but obviously we could test.

    Economy is a much tougher factor, considering that we have to take some balance into account. and that game engine limit means that units' price can't change just because region does. (though Mercenary's can.) I suppose one possible way to do i is that we end up merging all the AOR and Mercenary units into one (not a ridiculas idea anyway, espeically in the early era. and even late era we can seperate VIA price and replenish rate.) and have faction buildings only focus on core units (and these could be the same untis anyway, and with this method you can achieve different pricing.)

    This is of course, an immensely interesting potential aspect of the game that have not been utilized much. the idea that one could have almost unlimited settlements to play with is immensely appealing for obvious reasons. and would solve a lot of the heaches when doing regions. (for example... the problem in depicting the Zaragosa in 1100, where the region's too small to divide in half but in reality half was held by Aragon and the city was stll in Moorish hands.)
    1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....

  12. #2212

    Default Re: [V 4.0!] The Historical Units Region Buildings Mod! (2 New Factions/ Units/ Map / Buildings) Update 4/23

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Legionary View Post
    Wow.

    Out of curiosity, could the same be said of say, the Andalusian cities or the Holy Lands in their respective economic heights?
    I haven't found reliable statistics for Cordoba or Fez but I suspect they would be close at their heights but probably a bit below because they weren't the center of a trade and finance empire like Venice and Florence were. Hohenstaufens when ruling Sicily rivaled any other single revenue stream in Europe but that was relatively temporary compared to the multiple centuries of 1100-1500 dominance of Italian cities. Low Countries and central Germany came close to Italians but not as a single city so dominant but as a region the wealth was similar.

    Acre taxes and tolls on pilgrims and donations led the Kingdom of Jerusalem to nearly surpass Venice for a brief period but it wasn't lasting. Constantinople before the 4th Crusade was close to the revenue of Venice but was much more corrupt. IE most of that revenue went to frivolous expenses rather than defending the state where Venice had to spend to defend itself as its wealth was based on its trade which required vigorous defense to maintain. ERE wealth was based on trade as well but not so directly. However ERE had several cities that rivaled 13th century Italy in 1000s but the rise of Venice, Pisa, and Genoa successfully shifted much of that trade income to themselves away from ERE as the ERE wasted itself in internal divisions and let trade and other matters slip away.

    Eastern cities like Neyshabur, Merv, Urgench, etc were as rich or probably richer than N Italy until Mongols but were more isolated and vulnerable so invasions tended to weaken them more than the Italians who fought each other constantly but did ally against foreign invaders fairly successfully as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by RollingWave View Post
    Economy is a much tougher factor, considering that we have to take some balance into account. and that game engine limit means that units' price can't change just because region does. (though Mercenary's can.) I suppose one possible way to do i is that we end up merging all the AOR and Mercenary units into one (not a ridiculas idea anyway, espeically in the early era. and even late era we can seperate VIA price and replenish rate.) and have faction buildings only focus on core units (and these could be the same untis anyway, and with this method you can achieve different pricing.)

    This is of course, an immensely interesting potential aspect of the game that have not been utilized much. the idea that one could have almost unlimited settlements to play with is immensely appealing for obvious reasons. and would solve a lot of the heaches when doing regions. (for example... the problem in depicting the Zaragosa in 1100, where the region's too small to divide in half but in reality half was held by Aragon and the city was stll in Moorish hands.)
    Well the main problem with masses of PSF is if AI will use them. Otherwise it becomes a large advantage for human player. If that can be solved then a balance between population and map space can probably be found. I don't know about putting 5-6 PSF in some places just because the region is larger if the population was about the same as a smaller area.

    If many more units become AOR while more roster units are retrainable but not recruitable as faction expands and eras are less it is easier to control prices. A grand campaign from 1100-1500 its nearly impossible to do it within game constraints and requires scripts or radical change in building/income links.

    Yes, I've just been playing a Bellum Crucis campaign observing how what they've done works in practice(which is different than just looking at the files) but I'd really like to try a DofS campaign for similar reasons to see how all those PSFs impact game and how AI handles them.
    Last edited by Ichon; April 27, 2012 at 02:53 AM.

  13. #2213

    Default Re: [V 4.0!] The Historical Units Region Buildings Mod! (2 New Factions/ Units/ Map / Buildings) Update 4/23

    @ERE corruption:
    Of course, that's a given considering how long they had been dominating the trade routes.

    @Middle eastern cities:
    Makes sense...

    @Italian trade dominance:
    Heh, I had no idea, I thought that the Italian cities were not so godlike in terms of economy as they actually were...
    I was under the impression that they weren't that much better than say, Northern Europe.

    Ah well, the more you know.

  14. #2214
    RollingWave's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: [V 4.0!] The Historical Units Region Buildings Mod! (2 New Factions/ Units/ Map / Buildings) Update 4/23

    For the sake of discussion...

    Right now Italy (let's leave out the borderline Trieste and Nice for a minute) consist of..

    Venice
    Genoa
    Milan
    Bologna
    Florence
    Pisa
    Verona
    Rome
    Ancona
    Bari
    Naples

    I think that's about it. adding to the south would be easier due to larger provinces but some that immediately come to mind worthy of adding as PSFs would be...

    Brescia, Siena, Padua, Gaeta, Amalfi, Trani, Noli, Capua, Spoleto, Benevento, Salerno, Turin

    These would be fairly easy, but after that most would be focused in the Po River Valley region and would be insanely crowded if all put in, some give and take must be done...

    Some other potentially viable onces...

    Pavia, Canossa, Mantua, Parma etc... the list really goes on here ..
    Last edited by RollingWave; April 27, 2012 at 03:44 AM.
    1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....

  15. #2215
    RollingWave's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: [V 4.0!] The Historical Units Region Buildings Mod! (2 New Factions/ Units/ Map / Buildings) Update 4/23

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichon View Post

    Well the main problem with masses of PSF is if AI will use them. Otherwise it becomes a large advantage for human player. If that can be solved then a balance between population and map space can probably be found. I don't know about putting 5-6 PSF in some places just because the region is larger if the population was about the same as a smaller area.
    Yes, but we know that AI do build fort sometimes, it seems the AI is aware of strategic non-settlement position on the map at least to some extend, (i noted one of my recent 4.0 games that the rebels built a fort at the key choke point going into Santiago province for example) but would obviously require some testing. economic benifits could obviously be balanced VIA EDB income though.

    As for how many PSF per region : again PSF can come in different form, so while town / city forms of PSF would definately hae something to do with population, Castle / Fort types may not. and of course we also end up back in the same discussion of overall population vs concentrated centers. for example Volga Bulgaria obviously had lo population density, but it also did have quite a few towns along the Volga and it's branches. Bolghar / Bilar / Qasan etc were quite significant in population at their height. and of course, if I merge the Bolghar / Yelabulga region that region would be EXCEPTIONALLY large. I mean the size of entire France and then some. so having 3-4 PSF or more wouldn't seem that ridiculas.

    If many more units become AOR while more roster units are retrainable but not recruitable as faction expands and eras are less it is easier to control prices. A grand campaign from 1100-1500 its nearly impossible to do it within game constraints and requires scripts or radical change in building/income links.

    Yes, I've just been playing a Bellum Crucis campaign observing how what they've done works in practice(which is different than just looking at the files) but I'd really like to try a DofS campaign for similar reasons to see how all those PSFs impact game and how AI handles them.
    In theory, utilizin mercenary pool for recruitment is actually the best way to control cost changes through era, since you can have different begining / end to all units quiet easily (and unlike the EDB you can set a specific year instead of relying on event counters). as for units being retrained instead of recruited. that's possible, but how will the AI react? and also it's not THAT realistic either, one could easily take the example of the Crusader States to see that one in a far away land new knights are still made up. of course they may be knights from elsewhere but for the sake of game engine it's pretty much the same thing.
    Last edited by RollingWave; April 27, 2012 at 03:49 AM.
    1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....

  16. #2216
    RollingWave's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: [V 4.0!] The Historical Units Region Buildings Mod! (2 New Factions/ Units/ Map / Buildings) Update 4/23

    Also, another potential aspect of this change is the fact that it would allow the merger of some regions, for example I could merge Valladolid with Leon and just have one greater Leon province. or Luxor with Cairo and one large Niles region. so we could potentially just add more province into Italy, since whatever income benifits PSF brings it's still nowhere as much as an entire new region would bring. (though I have a hard time thinking up too many other regions that could be merged like that, Sijilmasa (with Marrakesh) and Al-Kharj (with either Mecca or Medina) or Najaf and /or Basra with Baghdad are reasonable candidates as well I guess. cetainly inland cities are more realistic since it doesn't invovle removing ports.
    Last edited by RollingWave; April 27, 2012 at 04:08 AM.
    1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....

  17. #2217
    beermugcarl's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: [V 4.0!] The Historical Units Region Buildings Mod! (2 New Factions/ Units/ Map / Buildings) Update 4/23

    reading through the recent comments, i was just going to say what you said in the last post
    by addings psfs with income you could free up region slots.
    i would then say a good way to pick things would be
    cities - historical recruitable population
    psfs - historical defendability and wealth.

    for instance scotland could have a high density of psfs with low income and maybe one or 2 cities.

    venice could have one city (itself) and high income psfs around 4 or 5.

    the devastion issue - i always imagined that in dots they were going to lower devastion significantly (campaign.db) but heighten public dislike to this devastion allot (settlement mechanics)

  18. #2218

    Default Re: [V 4.0!] The Historical Units Region Buildings Mod! (2 New Factions/ Units/ Map / Buildings) Update 4/23

    Quote Originally Posted by slothman92 View Post
    RW, is there any way I can get v 3.2?

  19. #2219

    Default Re: [V 4.0!] The Historical Units Region Buildings Mod! (2 New Factions/ Units/ Map / Buildings) Update 4/23

    why would you want an older version?

  20. #2220

    Default Re: [V 4.0!] The Historical Units Region Buildings Mod! (2 New Factions/ Units/ Map / Buildings) Update 4/23

    Quote Originally Posted by napoleonic View Post
    why would you want an older version?
    Chance to play past 1390 with the full rosters. I had been salavating over the 3.2 unit_desrc file waiting for a chance to play, then realized 4.0 was coming out and decided to wait for it. Then realized a lot of the cool units I was waiting for were not in 4.0 because of the 1390 end date. Then I could not decide which version I would rather have becasue I really wanted to play with serbia and use the super cool looking horse archer/lancer combo unit. I eventually decided I would rather play 3.2 when I saw how many not only late era but high era units were missing from 4.0. Also Serbia's recruitable non AOR roster is less than half the size of a lot of other factions, only 10 units, other factions like england and venice have 30 recruitable non AOR units in 4.0.

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