Major plot holes in the bible

[Silver Guard]

Did you not read what I said? I never said he didnt know of the other things, I said he didnt effect or determine them. He didnt actualize any particular world where you did this or that, he simply actualized a world with the net result he wanted. Knowledge of an outcome doesnt mean you determined every one of the methods/processes that brought it to that point. Not stopping the outcome means...you didnt stop it, but thats about it.

He is all-powerful, all-knowing and benevolent. He can see all things that will occur, he has the power to alter them, and has the will to make all things good. This is the problem of evil. It is an insurmountable problem with possessing all three powers. All you're saying is to repeatedly claim that he does not act on a lot of things. That is extremely presumptuous. Why would he not act on these things? You're just making up the nature of God as you go along to fit your argument.

Because then theres no freedom of will and our existence serves no purpose. Oh, look it there, theres that answer to the problem of evil again.

So... there's no freedom of will and our existence serves no purpose... if God exists, I completely support this claim. I agree with your point here completely. Again, just because it doesn't make a very happy and neat conclusion doesn't make it any less right.

If he controls every event the purpose is not fulfilled, and nothing good happens. Good/bad, thats morality, and only the conscious free mind can be a moral agent. Take away freedom of choice and were just deterministic robots, no better than any animals. Saving a girl from being raped by determining a man not to want to rape her isnt actually that. Its stopping a male human from forcefully copulating with a female human. No morals involved in anything, just brutal facts of reality. We'd be puppets, thats it.

Yes, absolutely, I completely agree. This is the result of the idea of an all-powerful, all-knowing God with a purpose in mind. You are completely correct. In fact, thank you very much for making my conclusions for me.

They influence us, they dont necessarily determine who we are.

Wrong, they determine everything about us. We are a combination of nature and nurture. Nature is the direct determining result of our parent's combination of genes (created initially by God), and nurture is the effect of the world around us upon our development (created initially by God). We cannot act in any way not determined by our nature or nurture. That's science for you.

[Squiggle]

He is all-powerful, all-knowing and benevolent. He can see all things that will occur, he has the power to alter them, and has the will to make all things good. This is the problem of evil. It is an insurmountable problem with possessing all three powers. All you're saying is to repeatedly claim that he does not act on a lot of things. That is extremely presumptuous. Why would he not act on these things? You're just making up the nature of God as you go along to fit your argument.

Uh, no I am not. You keep claiming its this huge problem, how insurmountable it is, how the characteristics create a contradiction...yet you never show it. You simply assert blindly and hope I will cave. What I've replied with works, and until you actually argue against it effectively, your doing nothing more than trying to get the last word in.

So... there's no freedom of will and our existence serves no purpose... if God exists, I completely support this claim. I agree with your point here completely. Again, just because it doesn't make a very happy and neat conclusion doesn't make it any less right.

I said that would be the conclusion if God attempted to wipe out evil. There would be no freedom of will, there would be no good, or evil. It would be an amoral universe. Why do I assert we have freedom of the will? Why do I "presume" so many things on the nature of God? Why, golly gee, could it because I'm speaking from a Christian perspective, where all these things have been revealed to us?

From a Christian perspective, freedom of will is simply a god given fact, and therefore evil must exist.

Yes, absolutely, I completely agree. This is the result of the idea of an all-powerful, all-knowing God with a purpose in mind. You are completely correct. In fact, thank you very much for making my conclusions for me.

You have very poor reading comprehension.

[Silver Guard]

Uh, no I am not. You keep claiming its this huge problem, how insurmountable it is, how the characteristics create a contradiction...yet you never show it. You simply assert blindly and hope I will cave. What I've replied with works, and until you actually argue against it effectively, your doing nothing more than trying to get the last word in.

Not actually an argument, my point still stands. You have yet to produce a single working argument against the problem of evil, and to be honest if you had done you would be an internationally renowned and successful philosophical thinker. You're not.

I said that would be the conclusion if God attempted to wipe out evil. There would be no freedom of will, there would be no good, or evil. It would be an amoral universe. Why do I assert we have freedom of the will? Why do I "presume" so many things on the nature of God? Why, golly gee, could it because I'm speaking from a Christian perspective, where all these things have been revealed to us?

From a Christian perspective, freedom of will is simply a god given fact, and therefore evil must exist.

From a Pastafarian perspective this is all due to the rate at which Pirates have vanished from the globe, and the only way to being back the health of the world is to place Pirates in control and allow them to roam free as hundreds of years ago.

Saying "oh I'm religious so my religion's perspective is right" is not an argument, it is a statement of belief. I could believe that the only way to grant free will is to make me king of the world due to my mystical abilities, I'm still not right.

You have very poor reading comprehension.

You're repeatedly failing to provide counter arguments and so are filling the blanks with personal attacks.

[SigniferOne]

Not actually an argument, my point still stands. You have yet to produce a single working argument against the problem of evil, and to be honest if you had done you would be an internationally renowned and successful philosophical thinker. You're not.

Hang on, so because you haven't been able to resolve the problem, the one who would be able to would be an internationally renowned philosophical thinker? Really?

I've both addressed and resolved this problem bunches of times on these forums, evidently during the time that you took your hiatus from EMM, so it's not a problem for me or for the threads that this has been addressed at.

[Squiggle]

Not actually an argument, my point still stands. You have yet to produce a single working argument against the problem of evil, and to be honest if you had done you would be an internationally renowned and successful philosophical thinker. You're not.

I already have addressed it, and you've yet to bring up any reason why it isnt valid, you've just been asserting its wrong. Hell, I'm reiterating arguments that theistic philosophers do make, so quit the mindless appeal to how this problem is apparently so difficult. Quit trying to get the last word in, either make a counter argument or quit wasting my damn time.

From a Pastafarian perspective this is all due to the rate at which Pirates have vanished from the globe, and the only way to being back the health of the world is to place Pirates in control and allow them to roam free as hundreds of years ago.

Saying "oh I'm religious so my religion's perspective is right" is not an argument, it is a statement of belief. I could believe that the only way to grant free will is to make me king of the world due to my mystical abilities, I'm still not right.

Thats...not at all what I did. Perhaps you need to re-read the course of the discussion, because clearly you once again have little grasp of what is being discussed. You've asserted its presumptuous to know Gods will, even though I'm a Christian. I know, or think I know, Gods will as its been revealed to me. If you want to argue against my belief system, do so from the basis of its own philosophy and theology, not against this generic all encompassing concept of God, which I do not hold to. I hold to the Christian God, and all the presuppositions therein. And in that regard, we have freedom of will, and if evil did not exist, it would be that God constrained our freedom of choice, and made us walking automatons. Thus, as in Christian theology, God created us with an expressed purpose- a purpose contradicted if he restrained freedom of will- evil and its existence is necessary and justifiable from the perspective of a Christian God.

You can argue against that all you want. Quit arguing against this made up generic God which I dont hold to, and quit simply asserting this isnt good enough. Bring out your points, or go away.

You're repeatedly failing to provide counter arguments and so are filling the blanks with personal attacks.

There is no counter argument necessary. I gave a "what if" and its consequences and you read it as "this is how it is". What am I suppose to say except improve your reading comprehension?

[SigniferOne]

If you want to argue against my belief system, do so from the basis of its own philosophy and theology, not against this generic all encompassing concept of God, which I do not hold to. I hold to the Christian God, and all the presuppositions therein.

I also don't understand his argument that Christianity has this malicious God, oh but we have to forget the NT and focus on just the OT. Although it's not even true for the OT either.

Silver Guard, you cannot invent a concept, and then hold another person to it. Argue with a Christian within the Christian framework, not within your own framework of what constitutes Christianity. If you want to argue against a Christian God, don't invent a concept of God as you subjectively prefer it. I really don't see how your reasoning works in all of this.

[War lord]

The New Testament isn't much better then the old one.

[Dan the Man]

First is the concept of Satan. If god is all knowing and all powerful and nothing is able to impose his will how does Satan exist? You'd think he could get rid of Satan pretty easily since he created the universe and Satan is part of the universe, don't you. What's he waiting for exactly?

Satan exists because God grants free will to his creations, including the Angels, which satan once was. Satan led a rebellion against God, he lost, and he was cast down to hell with the angels who sided with him, who became demons. Satan is kept around as a test for humanity to defy temptation here on Earth, and he won't be defeated until the second coming of Christ, which we aren't sure when will happen. But yes, God could easily destroy him permanently, and will do so when the time is right.

Second is dinosaurs. Christians claim that the year is 7,000 years old right? But how come scientists have discovered dinosaur bones that date back millions of years? How do you Christians explain that? I'm having some major problems wrapping my head around that my self.

Mostly only extremists with their heads buried in the sand. The wider majority of us believe the Earth is a few billion years old.

[black-dragon]

Mostly only extremists with their heads buried in the sand.

i.e. the people that read their Bibles.

[newt]

Satan exists because God grants free will to his creations, including the Angels, which satan once was. Satan led a rebellion against God, he lost, and he was cast down to hell with the angels who sided with him, who became demons. Satan is kept around as a test for humanity to defy temptation here on Earth, and he won't be defeated until the second coming of Christ, which we aren't sure when will happen. But yes, God could easily destroy him permanently, and will do so when the time is right.

Mostly only extremists with their heads buried in the sand. The wider majority of us believe the Earth is a few billion years old.

With an omniscient god, what does free will really mean? He already knows what is going to happen, so what's the point? He knew Satan was going to lead a rebellion and lose so what's the point of allowing it to happen? Satan is kept around as a test, but an omniscient god already knows the outcome so what's the point? Sounds like mental gymnastics to validate your faith...

[Silver Guard]

I already have addressed it, and you've yet to bring up any reason why it isnt valid, you've just been asserting its wrong. Hell, I'm reiterating arguments that theistic philosophers do make, so quit the mindless appeal to how this problem is apparently so difficult. Quit trying to get the last word in, either make a counter argument or quit wasting my damn time.

Right back at you, find an actual argument against the problem of evil and I'll give you a counter argument, I've already countered your last one, look back on our posts. Your inability to admit you're wrong isn't my problem.

Thats...not at all what I did. Perhaps you need to re-read the course of the discussion, because clearly you once again have little grasp of what is being discussed. You've asserted its presumptuous to know Gods will, even though I'm a Christian. I know, or think I know, Gods will as its been revealed to me. If you want to argue against my belief system, do so from the basis of its own philosophy and theology, not against this generic all encompassing concept of God, which I do not hold to. I hold to the Christian God, and all the presuppositions therein. And in that regard, we have freedom of will, and if evil did not exist, it would be that God constrained our freedom of choice, and made us walking automatons. Thus, as in Christian theology, God created us with an expressed purpose- a purpose contradicted if he restrained freedom of will- evil and its existence is necessary and justifiable from the perspective of a Christian God.

You can argue against that all you want. Quit arguing against this made up generic God which I dont hold to, and quit simply asserting this isnt good enough. Bring out your points, or go away.

Revealed to you? In person? Have the angels come and visited you and spent hours upon hours attempting to explain how the mind of a being we can't even fit the concept of into our heads could possibly think? Even to believe that we can understand how such a being would think and intend how the world works is outrageously arrogant and completely overoptimistic of our mental capabilities.

God, your Christian God, falls under all the same logical confines as an abstract generic God with the same absolute traits. Saying "The bible says so" about free will gives you no authority in a logical argument.

There is no counter argument necessary. I gave a "what if" and its consequences and you read it as "this is how it is". What am I suppose to say except improve your reading comprehension?

I didn't read it as "this is how it is", I believe it to be the way it is if your God exists. You did not provide a counter argument of why it wasn't. Produce an argument or stop posting.

Hang on, so because you haven't been able to resolve the problem, the one who would be able to would be an internationally renowned philosophical thinker? Really?

I've both addressed and resolved this problem bunches of times on these forums, evidently during the time that you took your hiatus from EMM, so it's not a problem for me or for the threads that this has been addressed at.

Saying "I did it! Look at me!" Doesn't actually help anyone reading this thread believe you actually did it. So go on, produce your argument against a problem which has troubled philosophers for centuries and remains unsolved. Be a genius.

Silver Guard, you cannot invent a concept, and then hold another person to it. Argue with a Christian within the Christian framework, not within your own framework of what constitutes Christianity. If you want to argue against a Christian God, don't invent a concept of God as you subjectively prefer it. I really don't see how your reasoning works in all of this.

I love it when people think saying the name of the other person will drive their point in further, really, it's just patronising. I am reading it regardless.

Christian God = Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent and Benevolent. This is the perspective I am arguing from. Are you willing to argue with me that your God does not have these powers? Because it won't be much of an argument.

I haven't invented any concepts, the God I am talking about IS your God, you just hate the idea that your God could be a logical inconsistency, and can be reduced so simply to four concepts. But the bible outlines these powers of God, and they govern his nature.

With those powers, as outlined from "the Christian framework" God has issues. Issues with logical fallacies such as creating a rock heavier than he can lift; the problem of evil; and in this case, the argument I am making, such a being would create an absolutely deterministic universe, determined by him. Free will becomes meaningless.

[SigniferOne]

With an omniscient god, what does free will really mean? He already knows what is going to happen, so what's the point?

It is known only in retrospect, it's not known ahead of time due to a causal principle.

Satan is kept around as a test, but an omniscient god already knows the outcome so what's the point?

Whether or not you know the worth of a man, that worth has to actually happen, does it not? Say you know a man will commit murder at some indeterminate time; you can't exactly put him in jail for something he didn't do, can you?

[basics]

If we follow the rules about interpretaion of Scripture, that is context and flow, we see that before the worlds were made it was ordained that an election took place by grace of them throughout time who would be given to Jesus Christ to be His. In other words for all those that He would become the Lamb of God, slain before the foundations of the world, so that they would be His.

One doesn't elect someone after the event. Their fate was predetermined not as a result of what any outcome is to be, rather by what was ordained by the past. It becomes quite clear as one reads Scripture that each of the elect has to begin at the same spot as all others begin, that of being in sin. Their lives couldn't happen if there was no others with which to interact and it is that interaction that is a huge part to and in them eventually coming to Jesus Christ.

It is silly to make any argument about God knowing the end just to fill in all else, why? As I said the context and flow must be continual which shows up despite the chaos that is the lives of any of the elect. Another reason is that it is God who Justifies when those of the elect reach a certain point in their lives where God deems them ready to be made regenerate. That is not left to the random decisions of man nor is it said to be that anywhere in Scripture.

[removeduser_487563287433]

And if we just read it, we find tonnes of plot holes because it's a loosely related fiction cobbled together by a variety of authors.

[Blau&Gruen]

Well, it contains also some good poetry. But what is good and what is bad poetry is often mere in the eye of the beholder. Some poems of my favorite poets are rather primitive. If I was a more subtile reader, my taste may also be finer. But reading educates. So seen, taste has something evolutionary, if it does not by accident or bad habits degrade itself.

[newt]

It is known only in retrospect, it's not known ahead of time due to a causal principle.

Right. The inherent omniscience argument. My question is 'How do you know this?'

Whether or not you know the worth of a man, that worth has to actually happen, does it not? Say you know a man will commit murder at some indeterminate time; you can't exactly put him in jail for something he didn't do, can you?

If I'm God I can.

[SigniferOne]

Right. The inherent omniscience argument. My question is 'How do you know this?'

By being out of time, you'd obviously know what happened in the future as well as in the past. The only thing is that those things in the future were not caused by the past, but you do know them having known the future.

If I'm God I can.

Why? The person hasn't committed it yet, that would be unjust. You have to have the person convict himself.

[newt]

No I meant how do you know that this is how God works?

[SigniferOne]

Just by the definition of being out of time. And free will being logically incoherent to refute. And morality being the only means to distinguish the faithful from the not. It all makes sense.

[newt]

Just by the definition of being out of time. And free will being logically incoherent to refute. And morality being the only means to distinguish the faithful from the not. It all makes sense.

What is this? Only faithful people have morals? Then what has been keeping me from killing/hurting others and why do I help people?
(No, it's not fear of the law...)