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Thread: Major plot holes in the bible

  1. #101

    Default Re: Major plot holes in the bible

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    Then why were people executed who tried to translate the Bible into their own native languages?


    Then what are Communion and Auricular Confession?


    See Apostolic Succession.


    Indeed, Medieval Latin. An ossified impoverished language, spoken by no one other than theologians amongst themselves, with no pretense to Classical aesthetics, a mere traditionalism, and esotericism for their own sakes.
    1) Really, anyone who tried to print the bible in a language besides latin were executed for heresy? Or were they executed for printing actual heresies, like false translations, eliminating books, etc. I also hear alot about "chaining bibles" so nobody could read them. Which doesn't make sense because one could go to church to read them. Not to mention, books were extremely valuable items back in the day, they were chained so they could not be stolen. I do not condone the execution of heretics in this day and age, but if you want to about it, yall don't exactly have your hands clean there either, buddy.

    2) Which is not magic. Unless you consider God to be a magician, in which case I would like to see you refer to God as the grand wizard and all his acts as sorcery.

    3) Apostolic Succession is not about having special insight to the bible only allowed to a few (priests). It is about the the granting of authority to administer the sacraments. Which has nothing to do with interpreting the bible.

    4) touche. Haha, I wiffed on that one. By arcane I was thinking mystical, not obscure. A better term would have been archaic, but the you were trying to give the impression that catholicism is all a bunch of hokey pokey magic. So I see what you did there. Latin was the international language of the middle ages. It was not "spoken by "no one". It was understood by most, and written by anyone who was literate. It was the lingua franca of the day, and still used at the time of the Reformation. It makes no sense to say that the church used Latin so no one could understand or change its doctrine because then it would be rather pointless to have any message at all, even a nefarious one. Now if you want to talk about its use up until the 60s, well that was obviously the church being stubborn.
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  2. #102

    Default Re: Major plot holes in the bible

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    what makes you think that they are right regarding this Roman?
    The exhaustive evidence.

  3. #103
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    Default Re: Major plot holes in the bible

    I'm just going to answer what I know in this regard.
    Quote Originally Posted by ♔DeusVult!♔ View Post
    1) Really, anyone who tried to print the bible in a language besides latin were executed for heresy? Or were they executed for printing actual heresies, like false translations, eliminating books, etc.
    They were executed in general, the heresy was the translation itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by ♔DeusVult!♔ View Post
    I also hear alot about "chaining bibles" so nobody could read them. Which doesn't make sense because one could go to church to read them. Not to mention, books were extremely valuable items back in the day, they were chained so they could not be stolen. I do not condone the execution of heretics in this day and age, but if you want to about it, yall don't exactly have your hands clean there either, buddy.
    The point isnt to say who has more blood on there hands, or any such. It's just to point out a historically accurate account of what we were, in the past. Catholicism was as sig portrayed it. And while books were valuable, the printing press was invented in 1440. They could have, and should have, been provided far more readily far sooner than they were. That is, after and as a result of the protestant reformation.
    Quote Originally Posted by ♔DeusVult!♔ View Post
    4) touche. Haha, I wiffed on that one. By arcane I was thinking mystical, not obscure. A better term would have been archaic, but the you were trying to give the impression that catholicism is all a bunch of hokey pokey magic. So I see what you did there. Latin was the international language of the middle ages. It was not "spoken by "no one". It was understood by most, and written by anyone who was literate. It was the lingua franca of the day, and still used at the time of the Reformation. It makes no sense to say that the church used Latin so no one could understand or change its doctrine because then it would be rather pointless to have any message at all, even a nefarious one. Now if you want to talk about its use up until the 60s, well that was obviously the church being stubborn.
    This is just completely untrue. Latin was the language of the courts and the educated, yes. But how much of the population did that constitute? 1%, maybe? No one else understood Latin whatsoever. Hardly anyone was literate. Thats why Martin Luther stressed the necessity of translating the bible to all languages, so the masses could genuinely understand their faith.
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  4. #104

    Default Re: Major plot holes in the bible

    I found a rather wonderful quote on Epicurus about matters of the existance of evil...

    Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?

  5. #105
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    Default Re: Major plot holes in the bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Marechal Ney View Post
    I found a rather wonderful quote on Epicurus about matters of the existance of evil...

    Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing (1)? Then He is malevolent (2). Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?
    Yeah, the problem of evil. Its terrible, its more of an emotional issue than it is a logical one.

    (1) does not logically imply (2), it simply doesnt. I can casually say "hes not malevolent if he has morally justified reasons to permit evil". There, done. The entire argument has collapsed as a logical arguement against an omnibenevolent God. The only thing thats left is how that makes you feel. So its an emotional issue, and thats about it.
    Man will never be free until the last King is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
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  6. #106

    Default Re: Major plot holes in the bible

    The statement "it is good to permit evil" is a logical oxymoron, it simply does not make sense, and that is the proposition you just made. There is a reason the problem of evil still vexes the most intelligent theological thinkers, casting it aside with one phrase is a little blasphemous towards these great thinkers who were unable to surpass it.

    Evil is the opposite of Good.
    Too cause evil is the opposite of causing good.
    Evil causes evil, good causes good, they cannot be the cause of one another.
    An all-powerful, all-knowing being knows every possible way to cause either and can do so in any of those ways. He would not be bound by "means to an end" ways of thinking.

  7. #107
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    Default Re: Major plot holes in the bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Guard View Post
    The statement "it is good to permit evil" is a logical oxymoron, it simply does not make sense, and that is the proposition you just made.
    That isnt what I said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Guard View Post
    There is a reason the problem of evil still vexes the most intelligent theological thinkers, casting it aside with one phrase is a little blasphemous towards these great thinkers who were unable to surpass it.
    Theology? Who gives a crap about theology. Its totally irrelevant, this is a philosophical issue, and the proble of evil is a joke philosophically.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Guard View Post
    Evil is the opposite of Good.
    evil is the absence of good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Guard View Post
    Too cause evil is the opposite of causing good.
    Evil causes evil, good causes good, they cannot be the cause of one another.
    An all-powerful, all-knowing being knows every possible way to cause either and can do so in any of those ways. He would not be bound by "means to an end" ways of thinking.
    Uh...except he gave humans freedom of will, for an overall purpose, which legitamizes allowing ye know, us choosing the wrong decision.
    Man will never be free until the last King is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
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  8. #108

    Default Re: Major plot holes in the bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Squiggle View Post
    That isnt what I said.
    Actually, if you'd go on and read what I said, that is essentially exactly what you claimed.

    Theology? Who gives a crap about theology. Its totally irrelevant, this is a philosophical issue, and the proble of evil is a joke philosophically.
    Theology is largely concerned with philosophical problems with religion, the problem of evil being one of them. Don't be pedantic over what area of philosophy we're debating in, the problem of evil is largely to do with the idea of God as described in the bible, and is therefore also a theological issue.

    evil is the absence of good.
    Now you're thinking like a theologian. Look it up in a dictionary. Evil is the opposite of Good. Evil is also (theologically) the absence of God. You're getting it mixed up.

    Uh...except he gave humans freedom of will, for an overall purpose, which legitamizes allowing ye know, us choosing the wrong decision.
    So what of all the non-human evils? Evil isn't only a human phenomenon. Animals are fully capable of brutal torture and murder, natural disasters are an evil in their own right. Suffering, in most understandings of it, is an evil when in excess.

    "Some overall purpose" isn't an argument. You may as well say "we have no idea what's going on, so it's pointless debating it." At which point why are you debating at all? It's a feeble way out of the debate.

  9. #109
    Squiggle's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Major plot holes in the bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Guard View Post
    Actually, if you'd go on and read what I said, that is essentially exactly what you claimed.
    I did, and its not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Guard View Post
    Theology is largely concerned with philosophical problems with religion, the problem of evil being one of them. Don't be pedantic over what area of philosophy we're debating in, the problem of evil is largely to do with the idea of God as described in the bible, and is therefore also a theological issue.
    What? What were discussing is religious philosophy, its not theology whatsoever. Modern theologians are sloppy and intellectually irrelevant in this and virtually every other issue. I dont care about modern theology in general. More specifically, this argument is a philosophical one, that isnt pedantic its precise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Guard View Post
    Now you're thinking like a theologian. Look it up in a dictionary. Evil is the opposite of Good. Evil is also (theologically) the absence of God. You're getting it mixed up.
    I answerd your theological statement with a theological answer, im not mixing anything up. The quote of epicurus is however, a general outline of the problem of evil. Philosophy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Guard View Post
    So what of all the non-human evils? Evil isn't only a human phenomenon. Animals are fully capable of brutal torture and murder, natural disasters are an evil in their own right. Suffering, in most understandings of it, is an evil when in excess.
    Middle knowledge, God authored the world so as to bring the most of us to him, freely, as possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Guard View Post
    "Some overall purpose" isn't an argument. You may as well say "we have no idea what's going on, so it's pointless debating it." At which point why are you debating at all? It's a feeble way out of the debate.
    No, I was being quick as I had to go somewhere. God allows freedom of will, for the purpose of life is to come and know God freely. We cant be free if we cant choose to do evil just as we choose to do good.
    Man will never be free until the last King is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
    ― Denis Diderot
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    As for politics, I'm an Anarchist. I hate governments and rules and fetters. Can't stand caged animals. People must be free.
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  10. #110
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    Default Re: Major plot holes in the bible

    Quote Originally Posted by ♔DeusVult!♔ View Post
    1) Really, anyone who tried to print the bible in a language besides latin were executed for heresy? Or were they executed for printing actual heresies, like false translations, eliminating books, etc.
    No they were just trying to print the Bible, or translate it into their own languages, and were executed for that.


    2) Which is not magic. Unless you consider God to be a magician
    God is not a magician but it is being a magician to claim that you have special powers granted to you FROM God. Auricular confession is not just warm feel-good chat with a guy who means well, it is a metaphysical absolution of all mortal sins, based on the priest's power to harness Godly powers, or powers delegated to him from God. Communion is the same thing, because you have magical powers to turn a simple bread and wine into the very flesh of God. Baptism is another case of this: by special incantations, because of powers you harness from God, you can turn a person into a Christian.

    3) Apostolic Succession is not about having special insight to the bible only allowed to a few (priests). It is about the the granting of authority to administer the sacraments.
    It is more than that. It also contributes to the Holy Tradition, and Holy Tradition is run by God himself. So whatever the Popes and Bishopes did throughout the ages, or at least a subset of that, is said to have been done by the very God, through them.


    4) touche. Haha, I wiffed on that one. By arcane I was thinking mystical, not obscure. A better term would have been archaic, but the you were trying to give the impression that catholicism is all a bunch of hokey pokey magic. So I see what you did there. Latin was the international language of the middle ages. It was not "spoken by "no one". It was understood by most, and written by anyone who was literate. It was the lingua franca of the day, and still used at the time of the Reformation.
    By the time of the reformation, with the rise of the local languages (since ~800 AD or so), Latin became a language of the select few. Anyone who wanted to read it had to spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to learn it and how to understand it. Most people were illiterate and could barely speak their own language, let alone the learned languages. But discussion was kept purposefully in Latin, whether the simple people could understand it or not. And of course those Latin expressions, e.g. the ones from Confession, Communion, and Baptism, held cosmic powers of God within them. Thus you spoke arcane phrases which nobody understood, but which carried cosmic powers with them.



    Quote Originally Posted by Marechal Ney View Post
    I found a rather wonderful quote on Epicurus about matters of the existance of evil...

    Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?
    Every now and then an atheist finds this quote and thinks it disproves God. The answer is the third option.
    Last edited by SigniferOne; December 01, 2010 at 02:58 PM.


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    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
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  11. #111

    Default Re: Major plot holes in the bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Squiggle View Post
    What? What were discussing is religious philosophy, its not theology whatsoever. Modern theologians are sloppy and intellectually irrelevant in this and virtually every other issue. I dont care about modern theology in general. More specifically, this argument is a philosophical one, that isnt pedantic its precise.
    There is no such reasonable statement as "More specifically, this argument is a philosophical one", pretty much any argument is in some way philosophical, it is the most general form of argument, there is no such thing as specifying something as philosophical.

    The problem of evil was initially tackled in some way or another by philosophers who were theologians. It is a biblical issue, and applies in no way to a general deity, only the one specified by the bible or other similar religious texts. As such, it is theological in root, and more generally, philosophical in nature.


    I answerd your theological statement with a theological answer, im not mixing anything up. The quote of epicurus is however, a general outline of the problem of evil. Philosophy.
    Epicurus has nothing to do with the problem of evil, he wrote hundreds of years before it was considered an issue. Also he equated good and evil to pleasure and pain, also viewed as opposites, so my point still stands.

    Middle knowledge, God authored the world so as to bring the most of us to him, freely, as possible.
    Biblically there is plenty to show that God wants us all to rot in hell, and even more worldly examples of this, so no, this isn't true at all, except maybe in the words of your local church's preacher.

    No, I was being quick as I had to go somewhere. God allows freedom of will, for the purpose of life is to come and know God freely. We cant be free if we cant choose to do evil just as we choose to do good.
    And I counter that there is no such thing as freedom of will due to physical determinism, which is fairly scientifically founded as a theory. If God created the universe as an all-powerful and all-seeing being he knew exactly how all beings will act and when due to the factors playing on their thoughts, therefore all our actions were chosen at the moment of creation.

    This is true whether or not God was involved at creation, but much more so in the case of such a powerful and all-knowing creator.

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    Default Re: Major plot holes in the bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Guard View Post
    Biblically there is plenty to show that God wants us all to rot in hell, and even more worldly examples of this, so no, this isn't true at all, except maybe in the words of your local church's preacher.
    You don't know much about the Bible do you.


    And I counter that there is no such thing as freedom of will due to physical determinism
    That is an immoral and misanthropic claim, as shown in the threads on evolution and on altruism. Additionally to even state that claim in a syntactical form is a logical fallacy, as explained in the free will thread.


    If God created the universe as an all-powerful and all-seeing being he knew exactly how all beings will act and when due to the factors playing on their thoughts, therefore all our actions were chosen at the moment of creation.
    This is known only in retrospect, because God is equidistant from all particular points in time. The choice itself has to be uncaused, as that's what determines the moral man from the not.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

  13. #113
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    Default Re: Major plot holes in the bible

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    Every now and then an atheist finds this quote and thinks it disproves God. The answer is the third option.
    Which is actually just a sub-set of the first. What causes God to have the nature he has? If we find it then we can go straight to the source of morality.
    'If there is an ultimate meaning to existence, as I believe is the case, the answer is to be found within nature, not beyond it. The universe might indeed be a fix, but if so, it has fixed itself.' - Paul Davies, the guy that religious apologists always take out of context.

    Attention new-agers: I have a quantum loofah that you might be interested in.

  14. #114
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    Default Re: Major plot holes in the bible

    " 3) Apostolic Succession is not about having special insight to the bible only allowed to a few (priests). It is about the the granting of authority to administer the sacraments. Which has nothing to do with interpreting the bible. "

    DeusVult!,

    So tell us about this Apostolic succession. About granting authority to administer the sacraments? Where do you get that stuff? Nonetheless show us where it is written?

  15. #115

    Default Re: Major plot holes in the bible

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    You don't know much about the Bible do you.
    No, nothing at all. I've only read it three times, examined it in bible reading groups and engaged with religious thinkers in a formal debating environment on the topic... no, I know nothing about the bible.

    That is an immoral and misanthropic claim, as shown in the threads on evolution and on altruism. Additionally to even state that claim in a syntactical form is a logical fallacy, as explained in the free will thread.
    And again, immorality and misanthropy are not logically incoherent. You are putting forward these arguments in an emotive, not reasoned, fashion, and so they have no place in a logical debate. I am quite happy to embrace your claims of my immorality and misanthropy if you would stop trying to use them as an argument.

    It is only a logical fallacy from a scientific perspective. From a theological, (or philosophical religious perspective as I've been criticised for using the word theological in this fashion already) it is a real problem with the idea of God as creator. If he is indeed all knowing, all powerful and the creator, he has in his power a very real form of determinism.

    In addition this form of determinism, which would allow God to know of all actions at the moment of creation would render his actions from that point irrelevant. He already knows how things will happen, so can enact, at the point of creation, everything to occur in the way he sees fit. He is also all knowing and as such would never change his mind. An all-knowing, all-powerful creator would never need to act again, everything will already happen as he wishes.

    This is known only in retrospect, because God is equidistant from all particular points in time. The choice itself has to be uncaused, as that's what determines the moral man from the not.
    That is a very big claim, and would require an incredible amount of knowledge of the nature of God, time, and the universe. Something neither you (nor myself or anyone else on this Earth) could possibly truly know enough of to make such a claim.

  16. #116
    Squiggle's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Major plot holes in the bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Guard View Post
    And again, immorality and misanthropy are not logically incoherent. You are putting forward these arguments in an emotive, not reasoned, fashion, and so they have no place in a logical debate. I am quite happy to embrace your claims of my immorality and misanthropy if you would stop trying to use them as an argument.

    It is only a logical fallacy from a scientific perspective. From a theological, (or philosophical religious perspective as I've been criticised for using the word theological in this fashion already) it is a real problem with the idea of God as creator. If he is indeed all knowing, all powerful and the creator, he has in his power a very real form of determinism.

    In addition this form of determinism, which would allow God to know of all actions at the moment of creation would render his actions from that point irrelevant. He already knows how things will happen, so can enact, at the point of creation, everything to occur in the way he sees fit. He is also all knowing and as such would never change his mind. An all-knowing, all-powerful creator would never need to act again, everything will already happen as he wishes.
    Your making the presupposition that God ordered the world so specifically, that he accounted for every single human action and process. Knowing your future doesn't mean I designed your future to be that way. The most Christians usually claim in terms of God ordering the world, is certain values in life to push someone towards understanding the truth. God orders the world so affairs turn out in a particular direction, but that doesnt necessarily mean he touches the other 90% at all, or favours one hypothetical world where you do xyz over another, as much of our behaviour has nothing to do with reaching that end goal: The most people freely coming to know and love God.
    Man will never be free until the last King is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
    ― Denis Diderot
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    As for politics, I'm an Anarchist. I hate governments and rules and fetters. Can't stand caged animals. People must be free.
    ― Charlie Chaplin

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    Default Re: Major plot holes in the bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Guard View Post
    No, nothing at all. I've only read it three times, examined it in bible reading groups and engaged with religious thinkers in a formal debating environment on the topic... no, I know nothing about the bible.
    Great, then you've heard about the thing called the New Testament, right? Your point may be true if the OT alone had existed.


    "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

    And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."



    It is only a logical fallacy from a scientific perspective.
    Great, then since the scientific perspective is the only one you accept, you have seen now how trying to deny free will is self-refuting.


    From a theological, (or philosophical religious perspective as I've been criticised for using the word theological in this fashion already) it is a real problem with the idea of God as creator. If he is indeed all knowing, all powerful and the creator, he has in his power a very real form of determinism.
    Again, not at all, not unless you're a Calvinist.


    In addition this form of determinism, which would allow God to know of all actions at the moment of creation would render his actions from that point irrelevant. He already knows how things will happen, so can enact, at the point of creation, everything to occur in the way he sees fit.
    Well of course he can, nobody says that free will actually denies God of omnipotency. The Bible however makes relentless appeals to choice, and the right choice.


    That is a very big claim, and would require an incredible amount of knowledge of the nature of God, time, and the universe. Something neither you (nor myself or anyone else on this Earth) could possibly truly know enough of to make such a claim.
    Oh it's not as hard as you imagine. Time and space have been created with the big bang. Something that is omnipotent and omniscient by definition exists outside of time and space, as was posited even before it was known that big bang had created space and time with it. Theology and science match and overlap here, in a way that might be called providential.
    Last edited by SigniferOne; December 01, 2010 at 04:47 PM.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

  18. #118

    Default Re: Major plot holes in the bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Squiggle View Post
    Your making the presupposition that God ordered the world so specifically, that he accounted for every single human action and process.
    He has to have done, he knew all these actions and processes would occur. If he had a purpose in mind for the universe, all of these things would have been taken into account, else he would have been a very fallible creator.

    Knowing your future doesn't mean I designed your future to be that way. The most Christians usually claim in terms of God ordering the world, is certain values in life to push someone towards understanding the truth. God orders the world so affairs turn out in a particular direction, but that doesnt necessarily mean he touches the other 90% at all, or favours one hypothetical world where you do xyz over another, as much of our behaviour has nothing to do with reaching that end goal: The most people freely coming to know and love God.
    And here's the problem of evil again. Why wouldn't he touch the other 90%? He knows of it, he can control it, and as a good being, he would want to control it to see his purpose fulfilled. More than that, to say Humanity's actions are 90% is a gross understatement, more likely it is 1x10^-1000...% of the actions of the creation God controls. Even by controlling everything but our thoughts and actions God has set into place so many factors upon us that our thoughts and actions are determined by these factors.

    Quote Originally Posted by SignifierOne
    Great, then you've heard about the thing called the New Testament, right? Your point may be true if the OT alone had existed.


    "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

    And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."
    The OT, no matter how important the New Testament, is the dominant religious text of western religion, being the chief inspiration and basis of all three major monotheistic world religions. It can't be so simply rejected with one NT quote.

    God placed us upon this Earth so that we may strive against many evils and temptations to redeem ourselves from the sin... that he gave us. Not because we personally did anything wrong, but that some mythological, most likely metaphorical ancestors of ours broke a promise. That is the core of Christianity, does it sound like a pleasant being to you? God here is acting as a dictator making humans dance for his pleasure. "Dance, dance, to make sure that you don't get shot in the feet... by the bullets I'm firing at you. Don't worry, if you dodge them all I'll give you cake!"

    Great, then since the scientific perspective is the only one you accept, you have seen now how trying to deny free will is self-refuting.
    Free will is perfectly logical from my perspective, but not yours. You can't have your cake and eat it. Either you reject God as an all-knowing, all-powerful being, or you reject free will. You can't have it both ways. I know which one I've chosen.

    Again, not at all, not unless you're a Calvinist.
    Not an argument, not even an explanation. My point stands.

    Well of course he can, nobody says that free will actually denies God of omnipotency. The Bible however makes relentless appeals to choice, and the right choice.
    Choice that we are incapable of actually making any other choice than, due to the circumstances we are placed in by God. Not really a choice.

    Oh it's not as hard as you imagine. Time and space have been created with the big bang. Something that is omnipotent and omniscient by definition exists outside of time and space, as was posited even before it was known that big bang had created space and time with it. Theology and science match and overlap here, in a way that might be called providential.
    How do you know time and space only existed after the big bang? Not even the world's most renowned physicists can claim that. Again, a big, and completely unsupported claim, which leaves the idea of God's timelessness and spacelessness completely unsupported as well. Let alone going on to try and claim how God perceives the world, like any of us could possibly understand how such a being would perceive things.

  19. #119
    Squiggle's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Major plot holes in the bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Guard View Post
    He has to have done, he knew all these actions and processes would occur. If he had a purpose in mind for the universe, all of these things would have been taken into account, else he would have been a very fallible creator.
    Did you not read what I said? I never said he didnt know of the other things, I said he didnt effect or determine them. He didnt actualize any particular world where you did this or that, he simply actualized a world with the net result he wanted. Knowledge of an outcome doesnt mean you determined every one of the methods/processes that brought it to that point. Not stopping the outcome means...you didnt stop it, but thats about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Guard View Post
    And here's the problem of evil again. Why wouldn't he touch the other 90%?
    Because then theres no freedom of will and our existence serves no purpose. Oh, look it there, theres that answer to the problem of evil again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Guard View Post
    He knows of it, he can control it, and as a good being, he would want to control it to see his purpose fulfilled.
    If he controls every event the purpose is not fulfilled, and nothing good happens. Good/bad, thats morality, and only the conscious free mind can be a moral agent. Take away freedom of choice and were just deterministic robots, no better than any animals. Saving a girl from being raped by determining a man not to want to rape her isnt actually that. Its stopping a male human from forcefully copulating with a female human. No morals involved in anything, just brutal facts of reality. We'd be puppets, thats it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Guard View Post
    More than that, to say Humanity's actions are 90% is a gross understatement, more likely it is 1x10^-1000...% of the actions of the creation God controls. Even by controlling everything but our thoughts and actions God has set into place so many factors upon us that our thoughts and actions are determined by these factors.
    They influence us, they dont necessarily determine who we are.
    Last edited by Squiggle; December 01, 2010 at 08:06 PM.
    Man will never be free until the last King is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
    ― Denis Diderot
    ~
    As for politics, I'm an Anarchist. I hate governments and rules and fetters. Can't stand caged animals. People must be free.
    ― Charlie Chaplin

  20. #120
    CamilleBonparte's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Major plot holes in the bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Guard View Post
    No, nothing at all. I've only read it three times, examined it in bible reading groups and engaged with religious thinkers in a formal debating environment on the topic... no, I know nothing about the bible.
    With so much exposure I'm disappointed you learned so little from all the time you must have spent.
    "If History is deprived of the truth, we are left with nothing but an idle, unprofitable tale." - Polybius
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