Major plot holes in the bible

**SigniferOne** · November 26, 2010, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by black-dragon

You claim this, yet when discussing how the Bible should be interpreted, you retreat back into Christian tradition. I'll ask this question: how am I to know whether Genesis is a literal or a metaphorical story? Given that similar fantastical beliefs were widely believed back then, it's plausible that it is meant literally. You can now start talking about the finer points of this and that, but the fact is that it doesn't make itself clear at all and this isn't something minor. So now you can either claim that I haven't interpreted it properly, showing that your initial claim that the 'plotline' is understandable to be false, or you can question my literacy. Which is it?

You are making a claim that the difference in interpretation is somehow a vast gulf between the two, when that is preposterous. Whether the creation story is literal or symbolic, the fact remains unchangeable that it is a creation story, and none of the essentials of the 'plotline' are changed, although a few details around the edges are obviously seen differently depending on the interpretation. The basic narrative of generation and fall is there whichever way you would like to look at it.

**black-dragon** · November 27, 2010, 03:47 AM

Originally Posted by SigniferOne

You are making a claim that the difference in interpretation is somehow a vast gulf between the two, when that is preposterous. Whether the creation story is literal or symbolic, the fact remains unchangeable that it is a creation story, and none of the essentials of the 'plotline' are changed, although a few details around the edges are obviously seen differently depending on the interpretation. The basic narrative of generation and fall is there whichever way you would like to look at it.

You can argue about whether or not it affects the general plot, but the fact still stands that the plot is unclear in regards to whether or not it is literal or metaphorical.

Look at it like this. Do you think that the plot of a WW2 story would change much if a ~5 year war was cut down to 5 minutes? What about if Tiger tanks were altered to be mobile tanks containing tigers which the Germans could unleash upon their foes? It's not going to affect the very general points in the story, but if we want to discuss the plot in more depth than simply "it's about some guy doing stuff", then we have a problem. Side note: if the more specific message contained in the detail is actually important, than God could cut the crap and condense the entire Bible into a few pages worth of general points. But no, he chose to write a boring, long-winded pile of gibberish. I could learn more about ethics and the meaning of life from a cookbook.

**Habelo** · November 27, 2010, 06:14 AM

Originally Posted by SigniferOne

Let's try this. Put some effort to ask about something specific, and I'll put effort into answering.

Anything relative to my first statement ofc? Are you dense or something?

**♔DeusVult!♔** · November 27, 2010, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by SigniferOne

Look into it historically. Thousands of Protestants were executed for the idea that the Bible ought to be read by simple people, and in their own languages. For the longest time priests and bishops kept themselves as powerful magicians who invoked mystical phrases in an arcane language, based on a mysterious and awe-striking book only they had access to, which held deep unknown secrets and wielded mighty power. Christianity, shockingly, became esoteric, and for good long many centuries. As I said, a mountain of bodies needed to have been sacrificed for this to change. Even now, the Catholic view is that the Pope and the Apostolic succession have a special mystical insight into the meaning of the Bible, which none the rest have access to. This is why the Holy Tradition matters so much; according to it, Christianity means what the Apostolic succession, the Popes and the Bishops, say it means.

Have you ever asked any Catholics or Orthodox people about this, or are you just running with the same mumbo jumbo that many protestants seem to be spoon fed about catholics. This whole comment is crap, a myth. Bibles were not withheld from the general public to keep them "in the dark" and the church in control, and catholics do not believe that priests can use "magic" or have special means of communicating to God for the rest of us. Arcane language, are you kidding me? These conspiracy theories get more and more ridiculous...

**Squiggle** · November 27, 2010, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by ♔DeusVult!♔

Have you ever asked any Catholics or Orthodox people about this, or are you just running with the same mumbo jumbo that many protestants seem to be spoon fed about catholics. This whole comment is crap, a myth. Bibles were not withheld from the general public to keep them "in the dark" and the church in control, and catholics do not believe that priests can use "magic" or have special means of communicating to God for the rest of us. Arcane language, are you kidding me? These conspiracy theories get more and more ridiculous...

Your ignorance is pretty ridiculous. Arcane language, are YOU joking? Latin was a dead language for centuries, the bible was printed in latin, and priests spoke in latin- to do otherwise was heresy.

**Bucken** · November 28, 2010, 01:53 PM

In the bible some people are like 200 years old. Also Christianity is a Patriarchial religion. Think of all the cool words that wikipedia can teach you.

**SigniferOne** · November 28, 2010, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by ♔DeusVult!♔

Bibles were not withheld from the general public

Then why were people executed who tried to translate the Bible into their own native languages?

catholics do not believe that priests can use "magic"

Then what are Communion and Auricular Confession?

or have special means of communicating to God for the rest of us.

See Apostolic Succession.

Arcane language, are you kidding me?

Indeed, Medieval Latin. An ossified impoverished language, spoken by no one other than theologians amongst themselves, with no pretense to Classical aesthetics, a mere traditionalism, and esotericism for their own sakes.

**Sphere** · November 28, 2010, 07:12 PM

I would like to get back to what I see as by far the most substantial and meaningful "plot hole" in the New Testament. That is the repeated message found in multiple gospel accounts of Jesus telling his apostles that the the apocalypse was very near, and that indeed they personally would play a part in it.

I presented this earlier, but did not get an satisfactory reply as it amounted to the claim that Jesus did not mean that God and his angels were literally coming down, but something more metaphysical, something we would not necessarily notice here on Earth.

But I cannot see how you can read the following passage of Mark and conclude that Jesus is not talking about real events that are going to happen right here on Earth. Things like the Sun will darken, the stars will fall out of the sky, God will burst through the clouds, angels will go around the Earth gathering people up etc.

And he concludes these foretellings by saying this is all going to happen within a generation, and in this passage of mark, that watching and waiting for this is an important thing for the apostles to be doing.

This is not a subtlety, this about as explicit as the New Testament gets. And unless you are really emotionally investing in Christianity, I don't see how you can read this passage (and the similar passages in the other gospels) and conclude anything other than a.)Jesus was lying b.)Jesus was a false prophet c.)The Bible contains a huge error in Jesus' teaching.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Squiggle** · November 28, 2010, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Sphere

I would like to get back to what I see as by far the most substantial and meaningful "plot hole" in the New Testament. That is the repeated message found in multiple gospel accounts of Jesus telling his apostles that the the apocalypse was very near, and that indeed they personally would play a part in it.

I presented this earlier, but did not get an satisfactory reply as it amounted to the claim that Jesus did not mean that God and his angels were literally coming down, but something more metaphysical, something we would not necessarily notice here on Earth.

But I cannot see how you can read the following passage of Mark and conclude that Jesus is not talking about real events that are going to happen right here on Earth. Things like the Sun will darken, the stars will fall out of the sky, God will burst through the clouds, angels will go around the Earth gathering people up etc.

And he concludes these foretellings by saying this is all going to happen within a generation, and in this passage of mark, that watching and waiting for this is an important thing for the apostles to be doing.

This is not a subtlety, this about as explicit as the New Testament gets. And unless you are really emotionally investing in Christianity, I don't see how you can read this passage (and the similar passages in the other gospels) and conclude anything other than a.)Jesus was lying b.)Jesus was a false prophet c.)The Bible contains a huge error in Jesus' teaching.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

I've already replied to this, thought it might of been posted by another person. The "within a generation" is directly tied to the whole fig tree bit. When you see the first signs of these times, as told, they will end within a generation. Not, within a generation these things will have come to pass.

**Scipio Africanus Maximus** · November 28, 2010, 10:37 PM

What Squiggle said, though I would like to add that Jesus couldn't have predicted that the end would come within a generation of his listeners because it would contradict what he says only two verses later, that not even he knows when the end will come.

**black-dragon** · November 28, 2010, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by Squiggle

I've already replied to this, thought it might of been posted by another person. The "within a generation" is directly tied to the whole fig tree bit. When you see the first signs of these times, as told, they will end within a generation. Not, within a generation these things will have come to pass.

Doesn't sound like it from what Jesus is saying. This is just another example of 'colorful interpretation' of the Bible. i.e. Christianity in a nutshell.

**Sphere** · November 29, 2010, 02:13 AM

Well we can look at Matthews example of the same thing. Which really reinforces that Jesus is not talking about some distant generation thousands of years in the future. It is stated explicitly which generation he means. And the way it is phrased makes it even harder to interrupt it to means just a happening in the heavens, as how could those not yet dead see it?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Another part of Matthew on the same theme is more cryptic in its language lacking the vivid imagery of Mark, so one could wiggle out by saying that Jesus is speaking of a heavenly event that is coming and not a Earthly one. But again he seems to be speaking as if those present are going to see this divine retribution for themselves. i.e the scribes and Pharisees of Jerusalem.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples,
2
2 saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses.
3
Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice.
4
They tie up heavy burdens 3 (hard to carry) and lay them on people's shoulders, but they will not lift a finger to move them.
5
4 All their works are performed to be seen. They widen their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels.
6
5 They love places of honor at banquets, seats of honor in synagogues,
7
greetings in marketplaces, and the salutation 'Rabbi.'
8
6 As for you, do not be called 'Rabbi.' You have but one teacher, and you are all brothers.
9
Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven.
10
Do not be called 'Master'; you have but one master, the Messiah.
11
The greatest among you must be your servant.
12
Whoever exalts himself will be humbled; but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13
7 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You lock the kingdom of heaven 8 before human beings. You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter.
14
) 9
15
10 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You traverse sea and land to make one convert, and when that happens you make him a child of Gehenna twice as much as yourselves.
16
11 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'If one swears by the temple, it means nothing, but if one swears by the gold of the temple, one is obligated.'
17
Blind fools, which is greater, the gold, or the temple that made the gold sacred?
18
And you say, 'If one swears by the altar, it means nothing, but if one swears by the gift on the altar, one is obligated.'
19
You blind ones, which is greater, the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
20
One who swears by the altar swears by it and all that is upon it;
21
one who swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it;
22
one who swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who is seated on it.
23
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You pay tithes 12 of mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier things of the law: judgment and mercy and fidelity. (But) these you should have done, without neglecting the others.
24
13 Blind guides, who strain out the gnat and swallow the camel!
25
14 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You cleanse the outside of cup and dish, but inside they are full of plunder and self-indulgence.
26
Blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup, so that the outside also may be clean.
27
15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men's bones and every kind of filth.
28
Even so, on the outside you appear righteous, but inside you are filled with hypocrisy and evildoing.
29
16 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, 17 you hypocrites. You build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the memorials of the righteous,
30
and you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have joined them in shedding the prophets' blood.'
31
Thus you bear witness against yourselves that you are the children of those who murdered the prophets;
32
now fill up what your ancestors measured out!
33
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you flee from the judgment of Gehenna?
34
18 Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and pursue from town to town,
35
so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood shed upon earth, from the righteous blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.
36
Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
37
19 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling!
38
Behold, your house will be abandoned, desolate.
39
I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

This theme of the imminence of God coming to create a kingdom of heaven is a repeated theme in the New Testament and I have plenty of other examples to provide if need be. Much of which is the great concern early Christians placed upon it, showing rather clearly how they interpreted these passages. But I was hoping to avoid all that and get to the heart of the question which is; way would Jesus tell of a coming apocalypse when there wasn't one?

**Poach** · November 29, 2010, 03:43 AM

Originally Posted by MaximiIian

You mean people in the Bronze Age didn't know how to radiometrically date the Earth's lifetime, or knew that there were giant reptiles that roamed the world millions of years before?
Astounding. Do tell.

Wait, seriously? You must be making that up. Source please.

**basics** · November 29, 2010, 05:38 AM

" But no, he chose to write a boring, long-winded pile of gibberish. I could learn more about ethics and the meaning of life from a cookbook. "

black-dragon,

The very first rules of interpretation as far as the Bible is concerned are context and flow all based on a central factor. The factor being the saving grace provided by the blood of Jesus Christ and what it meant to men and women of belief and disbelief. To the unbeliever what he or she then reads is the dead letter of Scripture which can and does leave the reader bemused and/or confused for want of a better word.

For the believer, the regenerate, his or her understanding comes by revelation through the Holy Spirit or Comforter who indwells them at conversion. All of the people who wrote the books of the Bible had because of their conversions the direction of the Holy Ghost when putting words to scroll. They knew exactly what they meant by their own experiences and this is what the Bible primarily is, their experiences in coming to know God.

For some four thousand years the priests and prophets of Israel compiled these Scriptures as they were directed of God, why? To guide the Israelites in what to them should have been the path of Holiness. Note that "of Holiness" and not, to, why again? Because they had been chosen but not born again as we see by their indifference to the words that they had received then. Yet even out of that numeritous people God did reveal His word to a few and it is from them that we learn.

The foremost argument that comes from the unbeliever is that this God is some horrible monster who butchers people at will, so who would want to learn from Him? But, what these fellows can't get into their heads, perhaps not wanting to, is that from the fall of man, all the nations, small and large, were butchering each other for land and the power that goes with it. This is what Israel faced on the way to the land they were promised. Today is no different from then.

And as Israel is but a type and shadow of the church we see from history that not all that was called the church is the body of Christ. Rome, the church that is, sought land and power, Communism sought land and power, Islam seeks land and power and certain Protestants seek the same. All in the name of God who has no desire for any on this planet to have such a thing. The Gospel, nay, the whole Bible being the Gospel seeks out men and women not interested in this planet but a place far better.

So, when we read of the Gospel being the power of God to save, what we are actually saying is that all the writers having been saved, were saved by the revelation of Jesus Christ to them thus changing their sin for perfection that opens the door to heavenly things. Some determine that to come from the New Testament alone therefore I would suggest to them that they look to Abel, Enoch, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Samson and so on and then tell me they weren't saved by grace.

If you cannot see that the context and flow from Genesis on is all about Jesus Christ then you too need revelation more than anyone just as we got it, not always given when sought, but given when God has you where He wants you. That is the story behind the central plank or core of Scripture where everything seen or unseen must lead to the Lord Jesus Christ. I don't think that there are any holes in what the writers had to say, that being their sole object.

**War lord** · November 29, 2010, 06:21 AM

Moses had drunken sex with his daughter's and nearly killed his son,some grace,some prophet.

**basics** · November 29, 2010, 06:31 AM

" Moses had drunken sex with his daughter's and nearly killed his son,some grace,some prophet. "

War Lord,

Not having my Bible in front of me, can you give chapter and verse for this as I think you have the story wrong?

**War lord** · November 29, 2010, 07:09 AM

Genesis 9 9:21 9:24 (Slavery advocated in 9:25)

I got it slightly wrong,it's his son Ham and it's implied not outright stated.
The daughter incest is later in 19:32 and it's Lot who gets date raped.

The Son manslaughter attempt under the direct orders of God is in Gen 22:1 to 22:12

**SigniferOne** · November 29, 2010, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by War lord

I got it slightly wrong,it's his son Ham and it's implied ~~and therefore~~ not outright stated.

Fixed.

The daughter incest is later in 19:32 and it's Lot who gets date raped.

This is known to the most beginning Bible students? You charge in here and would like to teach the whole world on what the Bible is about? Nobody called Lot a prophet or what happened to him a good thing. There are LOTS of bad things, done especially by Jews, and they are the first to blame themselves. While Moses is up getting the 10 commandments, Aaron, nothing less than the priest of the Jews, was building the golden calf.

**~~removeduser_487563287433~~** · November 29, 2010, 08:24 AM

My favourite plot hole in the Bible has Herod trying to kill Jesus ten years after his own death.

**♔Goodguy1066♔** · November 29, 2010, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by Ferrets54

My favourite plot hole in the Bible has Herod trying to kill Jesus ten years after his own death.

If Jesus can do it why not Herod?

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