Major plot holes in the bible

[SigniferOne]

I don't see any incoherence, so you'll have to reveal it to me.

I already posted it in the Free Will thread, here:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...31#post6011731

[black-dragon]

I already posted it in the Free Will thread, here:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...31#post6011731

I read it. I really don't see how that shows arguing against free will is logically incoherent. It's basically just the foundation of knowledge problem applied to free will. I could raise similar questions about arguing for free will. It's not a logical incoherency, just something we can never be sure of. You also seem to be implying that without free will our beliefs would be random and not necessarily adhering to a good standard of truth. However, evolution would have ironed this out. Creatures capable of perceiving the world as it actually is would do better than those that did not. Hence we can be fairly sure that at least part of how we think reflects truth. Furthermore, the fact that we often hold beliefs in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary suggests that we don't have the libertarian free will that you're arguing for. It's not easy for someone to just suddenly change their religion or lifestyle, for example.

[SigniferOne]

It's not a logical incoherency, just something we can never be sure of.

It's a logical incoherency for this reason: any conceptual formulation that denies free will is inherently self-refuting. Whether on a written page, or in your thought.

You also seem to be implying that without free will our beliefs would be random and not necessarily adhering to a good standard of truth.

No they wouldn't adhere to a random standard of truth, they'd adhere to someone else's standard of truth; for example nature and genes. But you could never know if it's THE standard of truth.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Sig, what the pissing shite does that have to do with all the plot holes in the Bible?

[SigniferOne]

It was asked:

With an omniscient god, what does free will really mean? He already knows what is going to happen, so what's the point?

Next time show a little care to investigate the backstory for where the thread finds itself at present.

[removeduser_487563287433]

I don't care what opportunity you took to drive the thread off-topic.

[Helm]

If God knows the future would he able to change it? And if he changes it wouldn't that mean he didn't in fact know the future in the first place? Either way it's neutralised his supposed omnipotence.

[SigniferOne]

I don't care

You could've stopped right there.

Reason and evidence-based, haha let's not make ourselves die from laughter.

If God knows the future would he able to change it? And if he changes it wouldn't that mean he didn't in fact know the future in the first place? Either way it's neutralised his supposed omnipotence.

I'm sorry, this is just a sophism. Let's rehash the unliftable rock? God determines the future, except for the wills of men which are left open to judgment.

[Helm]

I'm sorry, this is just a sophism. Let's rehash the unliftable rock? God determines the future, except for the wills of men which are left open to judgment.

So every natural disaster in history was pre-determined by God himself? It doesn't seem particularly nice of tbh.

[SigniferOne]

So every natural disaster in history was pre-determined by God himself?

Yes, it is a mechanical universe. Remember that it was Newton who discovered that. I accept and embrace this fact fully within my theism.

It doesn't seem particularly nice of tbh.

If you're an atheist and this is all there is, yes.

[Helm]

Yes, it is a mechanical universe. Remember that it was Newton who discovered that. I accept and embrace this fact fully within my theism.

If it's mechanical why would God need to determine anything? Surely it can just run itself once all the inital conditions have been set? God didn't need to micromanage every natural disaster to hit humanity.

Yes


If you're an atheist and this is all there is, yes.

I'm not an atheist and I'm sure this isn't all there is, I'm fairly sure anyway. Even if this was all is then that wouldn't be too much of problem, though I think it would be a great shame for anyone who dies tragically young but then at least there would be no omnipotent entity to blame for it.

[SigniferOne]

If it's mechanical why would God need to determine anything? Surely it can just run itself once all the inital conditions have been set? God didn't need to micromanage every natural disaster to hit humanity.

You assume that by 'determine' I meant that God has to micromanage eveything. That I actually didn't say. I do say that everything in the universe was originally caused by God, but not that it is in a personal way run and micromanaged by him. The universe is autonomous and runs like a machine.

I'm not an atheist and I'm sure this isn't all there is, I'm fairly sure anyway. Even if this was all is then that wouldn't be too much of problem, though I think it would be a great shame for anyone who dies tragically young but then at least there would be no omnipotent entity to blame for it.

If there's no God, and nothing after this, then it would be a tragic shame, and the evil and/or senseless horrific universe would need to be the impression that one would have to have. Although God adds the element of intentionality into everything, he also adds the element of transcendence, which in the end more than mitigates any of the natural setbacks.

[Helm]

You assume that by 'determine' I meant that God has to micromanage eveything. That I actually didn't say. I do say that everything in the universe was originally caused by God, but not that it is in a personal way run and micromanaged by him. The universe is autonomous and runs like a machine.

So God didn't determine everything that happens in the future? If he had everythnig that happens (with the possible exception of what we do but he would still know what wer'e going to do anyway) would have been initally planned out by him in complete detail.

If there's no God, and nothing after this, then it would be a tragic shame,

I suppose it would be but then we would never know about it. And at least we can claim the good fortune of ever having existed at all which considering all the other different sperms that could have fertilised our mothers or any of our females ancestors eggs, we wouldn't have been here to see it as a problem at all.

[newt]

You assume that by 'determine' I meant that God has to micromanage eveything. That I actually didn't say. I do say that everything in the universe was originally caused by God, but not that it is in a personal way run and micromanaged by him. The universe is autonomous and runs like a machine.



If there's no God, and nothing after this, then it would be a tragic shame, and the evil and/or senseless horrific universe would need to be the impression that one would have to have. Although God adds the element of intentionality into everything, he also adds the element of transcendence, which in the end more than mitigates any of the natural setbacks.

You're so sure you've got it all figured out, when there is nothing in the Bible to confirm your beliefs.

I say this guy has it right, and you are a blasphemer.

[SigniferOne]

So God didn't determine everything that happens in the future? If he had everythnig that happens (with the possible exception of what we do but he would still know what wer'e going to do anyway) would have been initally out by him in complete detail.

I don't see the confusion here. Say you roll a ball off a table, and it falls down. Did you cause it to eventually fall down? Yes, there is no one else's will involved in this but yours, plus mechanical factors. Did you literally push it to the floor? Not really.

I suppose it would be but then we would never know about it. And at least we can claim the good fortune of ever having existed at all which considering all the other different sperms that could have fertilised our mothers or any of our females ancestors eggs, we wouldn't have been here to see it as a problem at all.

This has no heart to make sense to any human being alive. It is correct scientifically, but it ends there.

[Helm]

I don't see the confusion here. Say you roll a ball off a table, and it falls down. Did you cause it to eventually fall down? Yes, there is no one else's will involved in this but yours, plus mechanical factors. Did you literally push it to the floor? Not really.

A deistic God would have invented gravity though he wouldn't have say planned an asteroid impact in the future which will kill millions, he determined the laws of nature not the future. So what you're talking about is a deistic God. Though the problem I have with a creator God like that is the being who created the universe seems to be more complex an entity than the universe you were originally trying to explain in the first place so you haven't explained very much just shifted what you have to explain onto something else.

This has no heart to make sense to any human being alive. It is correct scientifically, but it ends there.

This is only a what if scenario if materialism is true, it could be true but I don't personally believe it's likely to be true. The weight of history, human belief, subjective spiritual experience and philosophy is against it while science is completely neutral, also materialism wouldn't be much of an explanation as to why the material exists to be fair, God would offer an explanation even if he would ultimately have to explain himself. I still not all keen on the orthodox Abrahamic faiths though, Gnostic Christianity and Kabalist Jews I don't mind so much.

[SigniferOne]

A deistic God would have invented gravity though he wouldn't have say planned an asteroid impact in the future which will kill millions

If he just invented gravity, then where did the asteroid come from?

the being who created the universe seems to be more complex an entity than the universe you were originally trying to explain

Why?

This is only a what if scenario if materialism is true

Exactly, all the accusations people fling, e.g. "killing" people through a natural accident, are real deaths only in the atheist framework.

[Helm]

If he just invented gravity, then where did the asteroid come from?

Originally all the heavy elements came from the first super massive hydrogen stars, these elements when blasted out into space from a supernova form nebulas which in turn form smaller stars, planets, comets, asteroids and so on. But the universe seems to operate itself without any physical supernatural imput.

Why?

If the evolution of the universe is anything to go by it seems simple beginnings that build up gradually to eventual greater complexity, and most ancient creation stories ran along these lines. The universe may also be part of cyclical system of time such as Hinduism or it's a small part of a megaverse, I like to be on the side of the latest scientific theories where possible. It doesn't rule out a transcendent realm or result in materialism it just doesn't support such a thing as an omnipotent God.

Exactly, all the accusations people fling, e.g. "killing" people through a natural accident, are real deaths only in the atheist framework.

Well they're still real deaths, whether or not go elsewhere it's still a tragic event for all conconcerned. Unless it's say a natural death from old age which isn't quite so tragic. If everyone could live a full life to old age and there wasn't anything else but this life I wouldn't see that as something to be concerned over., it would be a little bit sad that's all.

[Sphere]

This is thread I'd rather not bump but I've come across another biblical passage which supports my preposition that many in early christianity thought the second coming was going to happen very soon. The book of James, attributed to James of Jerusalum, a contemporary and possible brother of Jesus, but possibibly written after his death by his followers in the late 1st early 2nd Century says this.

1 Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. 2 Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5 You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.[a] 6 You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.

7 Be patient, then, brothers and sisters, until the Lord’s coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop, patiently waiting for the autumn and spring rains. 8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9 Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!

Like with Paul, we are in a post-gospel writing here so there is no wiggle room to say this has any coherent meaning anything other than a second coming type event, not the establishment of a judgement system in heaven which occured with the cruxifiction of Christ. This is even stronger than what Paul is willing to say, and reinforces the idea that the earliest Christian's had the notion that an apocolpyse was imiment, and I don't think there is any mystery as to how they got that notion.