Next Real Warhammer update

[The Holy Pilgrim]

Hello,

I'd like to get an opinion on two issues for the next Real Warhammer update.

Please only vote for one choice for each pair of choices.

They are:

1) Should the Orcs have one health or two?

2) Should bodyguards have the same health as their regular counterparts or +1 health?

3) Should the Dogs of War be included as a faction in custom battles?

This thread will close in 15 days so please cast your votes now so I can make the necessary preperations.

These options will be completely upto you guys. I will not vote on this and I will go with what you decide.

[Reiksfart]

Really depends on whether the player is playing orcs or not. A.I needs all the help it can get, so for my own game I give the A.I enough to make it a challenge so would keep orc hp at 2.

IMO bodyguards should be tougher. I'd also like to see Juggernauts as the Khorne generals bodyguard in the campaign (hint)

Definitely like to see Dogs of War as a custom battle faction. I'm hoping I won't be playing custom battles much if the campaign is playable with 1.4, but it's always nice to fight a custom.

Would you be willing to add some new custom battle maps? Majority of custom battle maps included with the mod are not good and I'm bored of the few decent ones. I personally hate playing on any map with forest, and some are not even playable due to strange slanted terrain.

One other request about custom battles: Is it possible to change it so Empire can fight Empire? Or Orc vs Orc etc.

[Mikail Mengsk]

Orcs MUST have 1 HP. 2 HP for normal troops is serious imbalance, and not realistic or lore-wise at all. I'll flame 'till death everyone that says otherwise. If a player choose them, they would be ridicolously overpowered, and the 1 more HP is very very heavy in autoresolve.

Bodyguards should have 1 more HP because the AI usually throws them in the melee, and lowering them of 1 HP will just make things even easier for the player. Also, we can assume that generals are similar to tabletop's heroes, so they are significantly stronger than "normal" troops.

DoW as a separate faction will be good to see, but it's not a main issue, IMHO.

[Reiksfart]

You are thinking too much along the lines of what balance is in tabletop. Tabletop is all about balance for the most part, nothing really to do with the lore. An Orc Waaah should seriously outnumber any army any of the other factions can field, yet you cannot simulate that very well in the game because of number restrictions for single armies. Perhaps that does make it a little unbalanced when it is an orc army invading an AI faction, but it not unbalanced vs a player (who should not be auto resolving). This mod is all about challenge.

Doesn't really bother me anyway, I change many stats myself to suit my taste and give a harder challenge on the field.

[Mikail Mengsk]

We can easily recreate the outnumbering Waaagh by multiple armies, and very easily. Giving orc units' 250 soldiers (or lowering other races' numbers). That will do the trick without adding such unbalancing factor like the +1HP for all troops, even Orc Archers that are lore-wise the weakest of orc warriors. More important, it ruins autoresolve, making things too hard for dwarves when the AI rules orcs and dwarves.

Doesn't really bother me anyway, I change many stats myself to suit my taste and give a harder challenge on the field.

Me too

[Himster]

The answers to the first two are rather obvious.

About the thrid question: Are there a limited number of custom battle factions?

[The Holy Pilgrim]

31 is the max. I can add 3 more without interfering with the campaign.

[Klierowski]

We can easily recreate the outnumbering Waaagh by multiple armies, and very easily. Giving orc units' 250 soldiers (or lowering other races' numbers). That will do the trick without adding such unbalancing factor like the +1HP for all troops, even Orc Archers that are lore-wise the weakest of orc warriors. More important, it ruins autoresolve, making things too hard for dwarves when the AI rules orcs and dwarves.




Me too

Stfu... How will u balance an orc horde with have low morale,horde Formation ( they can't hold ground - as orc u need only attack),weak cavalery,archers ? you wanna See Orc huge Waaaghhh Crushed by single empire faction ? omg.

[Mikail Mengsk]

Stfu... How will u balance an orc horde with have low morale,horde Formation ( they can't hold ground - as orc u need only attack),weak cavalery,archers ? you wanna See Orc huge Waaaghhh Crushed by single empire faction ? omg.

type Swordsmen of Empire ;WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7

stat_health 1, 0

stat_mental 7, normal, trained

stat_cost 1, 700, 140, 100, 100, 700, 4, 1000 ;6$

type Orcz boyz

stat_health 2, 0

stat_mental 11, impetuous, untrained

stat_cost 1, 850, 170, 100, 100, 850, 4, 75 ;5$ +1$

+1 HP and +4 Morale for +150 florins? I'd love that, yeah. Maybe you like to win easy using them, but their OP potential is pretty clear.

A modder can easily recreate the waagh by simply ADDING MORE SPAWN SCRIPTS, and raising numbers in orc units' data. Adding attack and charge bonus and lowering their armour would be lore-wise too. A Waagh is not about having nonexisting low-tier uberorcs crushing enemies single-handed, it's about having TONS of units to overrun the enemy with.

Go say stfu to someone else, kid.

[Galandor]

Orcs MUST have 1 HP. 2 HP for normal troops is serious imbalance, and not realistic or lore-wise at all. I'll flame 'till death everyone that says otherwise. If a player choose them, they would be ridicolously overpowered, and the 1 more HP is very very heavy in autoresolve

Ok, so you're saying a naked ork can take an arrow just like a naked empire soldier?(not knightly orders). Or a punch for that matter, you think a punch to the face it the same for a regular human than a green killing machine?. Orcs are plain more resilient than other races, they should be treated as such.

Getting over the 'overpowered' part I think the current difficulty for killing orcs in the campaign is really nice and well achieved.


EDIT: And everyone stop STFUing, let's keep it civilized

[Mikail Mengsk]

Ok, so you're saying a naked ork can take an arrow just like a naked empire soldier?(not knightly orders). Or a punch for that matter, you think a punch to the face it the same for a regular human than a green killing machine?. Orcs are plain more resilient than other races, they should be treated as such.

Orcs are as resilient as Dwarves both in lore and tabletop, but for gameplay and balance's sake basic Dwarven units has 1 HP, and this is fine. Why orcs have 2 HPs? Grave guards has high Resistence too, but 1 HP. Chaos warriors too. Are you saying that a normal Orc is TWO TIMES tougher than a Chaos Warrior? I hope not, because it isn't.


Multiple HPs are for elite units and bodyguards in every TW game, and in this mod too. The only exception is for Orcs, and there is no reason for it.

[hick09]

1) Should the Orcs have one health or two?

2) Should bodyguards have the same health as their regular counterparts or +1 health?

3) Should the Dogs of War be included as a faction in custom battles?

1) one health as we will do in 1.4 (only elite units must have 2 HP)
2) + 1 HP
3) no

[Galandor]

Orcs are as resilient as Dwarves both in lore and tabletop, but for gameplay and balance's sake basic Dwarven units has 1 HP, and this is fine. Why orcs have 2 HPs? Grave guards has high Resistence too, but 1 HP. Chaos warriors too. Are you saying that a normal Orc is TWO TIMES tougher than a Chaos Warrior? I hope not, because it isn't.


Multiple HPs are for elite units and bodyguards in every TW game, and in this mod too. The only exception is for Orcs, and there is no reason for it.

Ok, I'll humor you for hypothesis sake. Let's say they drop the 2 hp to 1 hp. Then they'd have to do what they did with chaos warriors so they didn't have 2 hp, they have higher stats, is that what you're suggesting? that they have higher stats instead of 2 hp? Couse if not so they WILL be underpowered.


One little 'lore' wise problem with stats increasing is that an ork isn't a really 'trained' soldier, they just throw blows with all their higher strenght and overpower things in their path through numbers and plain orc mussle. So that's the difference between an orc warrior and chaos warrior, they are both tough but they have VERY different training, so the way to make them more of an equal is to make the orc have 2 hp.

I don't see where is the 'game breaking imbalance'

[Maha Moggalana]

1. Orc in 1.3 is imba ? noooooo . Even with 2 hp , orc is raped . But in 1.4 , they will get troll and shaman , so reduce 1hp will balance the game .
2. Bodyguard should have +1 hitpoint or have extra stat (attack , defense skill)
3. No.

[Russian Gondor]

Orcs MUST have 1 HP. 2 HP for normal troops is serious imbalance, and not realistic or lore-wise at all. I'll flame 'till death everyone that says otherwise. If a player choose them, they would be ridicolously overpowered, and the 1 more HP is very very heavy in autoresolve.

Bodyguards should have 1 more HP because the AI usually throws them in the melee, and lowering them of 1 HP will just make things even easier for the player. Also, we can assume that generals are similar to tabletop's heroes, so they are significantly stronger than "normal" troops.

DoW as a separate faction will be good to see, but it's not a main issue, IMHO.

In my opinion 2 HP is just right for the Orks because in the rules manual it says "Orcs are extremely lively and can heal very quickly". It gives an example so if an orc gets their arm cut off, they an stitch it back on and it will be fine. If nerfed to 1 HP then their attack needs to be boosted. I am not sure many could take a bulking green mass of pure muscle.

[Mikail Mengsk]

Ok, I'll humor you for hypothesis sake. Let's say they drop the 2 hp to 1 hp. Then they'd have to do what they did with chaos warriors so they didn't have 2 hp, they have higher stats, is that what you're suggesting? that they have higher stats instead of 2 hp? Couse if not so they WILL be underpowered.


One little 'lore' wise problem with stats increasing is that an ork isn't a really 'trained' soldier, they just throw blows with all their higher strenght and overpower things in their path through numbers and plain orc mussle. So that's the difference between an orc warrior and chaos warrior, they are both tough but they have VERY different training, so the way to make them more of an equal is to make the orc have 2 hp.

I don't see where is the 'game breaking imbalance'

That's why Chaos Warriors have much higher attack value and morale/discipline. Also, they are elite soldiers, so they could have 2 HP. Marauders are Chaos' basic troops, not Chaos Warriors. Lore-wise, Chaos Warriors are among the BEST warriors in the world, there is no "normal" ork that can stand 1vs1 against a CW. Not even a Black Orc could.

I see no contraddiction.

1. Orc in 1.3 is imba ? noooooo . Even with 2 hp , orc is raped . But in 1.4 , they will get troll and shaman , so reduce 1hp will balance the game .

Raped by who? Human players? Well, human players can rape every faction... In autoresolve, 1 more HP is a huge advantage.

In my opinion 2 HP is just right for the Orks because in the rules manual it says "Orcs are extremely lively and can heal very quickly". It gives an example so if an orc gets their arm cut off, they an stitch it back on and it will be fine.

"Heal very quicly" and "can heal a cut-off arm just by stitching it to the shoulder" are very different things. VERY different. Also, are you quoting a manual of the tabletop game? The game where orcs have 1 HP? Ironic.

If nerfed to 1 HP then their attack needs to be boosted. I am not sure many could take a bulking green mass of pure muscle.

That's what i'm suggesting: their attack and charge value should be raised.

[Galandor]

That's why Chaos Warriors have much higher attack value and morale/discipline. Also, they are elite soldiers, so they could have 2 HP. Marauders are Chaos' basic troops, not Chaos Warriors. Lore-wise, Chaos Warriors are among the BEST warriors in the world, there is no "normal" ork that can stand 1vs1 against a CW. Not even a Black Orc could.

I see no contraddiction.

I'm not stating you're contraddicting yourself, I'm merely saying you'll be terribly underpowering orks unless they EXCHANGE the 2 hp for higher stats (not just higher attack) wich in my oppinion is really weird 'couse orks aren't trained soldiers so their stats should be low. Their pluses are a) Numbers and b) Resilientness.

I don't see the problem, so what if orks are better in 'autoresolve'. I think the 2 hp represents them best for the reasons above.

[Mikail Mengsk]

Orks are not trained soldiers? Their entire life is to fight... they don't have the discipline of Empire soldiers (and this is recreated by "untrained" trait), but their strenght and charge power are superior to the average human soldier.

Orks SHOULD be underpowered, because now they are OP. Decreasing their HP to 1 and adding some attack/charge bonus will simply make them balanced. It will be good to decrease their cost and upkeep, of course.

No surprise the modding team already will do that in 1.4:

1) one health as we will do in 1.4 (only elite units must have 2 HP)
2) + 1 HP
3) no

[forkhorne]

Orks are not trained soldiers? Their entire life is to fight... they don't have the discipline of Empire soldiers (and this is recreated by "untrained" trait), but their strenght and charge power are superior to the average human soldier:

Fighting all your life and being trained in the skills to weild a weapon to kill your opponent are 2 different things. Orcs from both fantasy and 40k fight with the sheer mass of numbers and better strength to kill their foes. The swing wildly in the air our just shoot their guns (from 40k) wildly at their opponents.
1. I agree with you with the 1hp there ment to swamp you not to outclas you. Thats what orca do, qauntity over qaulity is their way of thinking.
2.Yes bodygaurds should get the extra hp if there a bodygaurd there probablly to elite of their general.
they shouldnt just be a meat shield (though they do a good job about that...).
3. No DoW shouldnt but i want lizardmen.(unless you already have them[i havent updated my CoW for some time])

[Galandor]

Orks are not trained soldiers? Their entire life is to fight... they don't have the discipline of Empire soldiers (and this is recreated by "untrained" trait), but their strenght and charge power are superior to the average human soldier.

Orks SHOULD be underpowered, because now they are OP. Decreasing their HP to 1 and adding some attack/charge bonus will simply make them balanced. It will be good to decrease their cost and upkeep, of course.

No surprise the modding team already will do that in 1.4:

Yes, their entire life is to fight, like a drunken bar fighter, does he get any good at it? Perhaps, but it still isn't called a training at all.

So yeah an orc isn't a trained soldier in any respect, he's just an overly aggressive killing machine taught to swing as hard as you can a choppa or blunt object.

It's sad orcs will get their arses handed to them in 1.4