Dispute

[.Mitch.]

So here you are, as you can quite clearly see in the following pictures, the front of Orzimmar. My new 'place'.

Pic

To the left, you will notice, Josstwc has dug a large cavern. This cavern now extends to the point as to where it is digging through the side of the mountain face, I chose to call my new home. Quite a dwarven looking mountain, a good spot to place my planned entrance, I think you'd agree.


Now earlier this week. Josst decided it would be a good idea to make a cave right above Aankers.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Myself, and another of the OP's that were on, advised him, that it was common curtousy to ask a player whos area you were interfering with, before building/digging etc.

This here is the map for you..


At the top right you can see where Aanker is based. This is also where Josst decided to dig, unfortunatly for Aanker. Bottom left, you can see the natural alcove where I started my entrance area.
The plan was that me and Aanker would create two dwarven cities underground. (Anyone who was on might have heard us talking)

It was just after Josst started his cave, he decided it would be a neat idea, to dig a perfectly straight 2 block high tunnel right to my mountain. He then forked off, and created not one, but two, holes in the side of the mountain.
This pissed me off.. So I filled the holes with dirt, then placed a sign in his cave saying "DO NOT DIG STRAIGHT TO MY STUFF AGAIN!"..

Now then, imagine my surprise, when this guy, who has not only been warned not to interfere with others areas without asking, by 2 OP's... but he also completely ignored my obviously angry request to "NOT DIG STRAIGHT TO MY STUFF AGAIN"..

He plans now to extend this cave of his, out through my mountain, right past the area Im going to build my grand enterance at.

You can quite clearly see in the following image, I have been clearing dirt away, and thus snow, in preperation for my enterance gate..


Like I said, Josst is a new player, he perhaps doesnt understand the courtesy that is neccesary to be given to other peoples things.
The same courtesy that was given to me, when Makrell wanted to extend my road system. The same courtesy that Jom asked for when the new player Tom/Tim (cant remember his name) decided to make a bridge right to his house.. The same courtesy that Josst.. yet again... didnt give to Englishtyrant, when he build his house nie on top of tyrants...

When Jom, Ferrets, or anyone elses Wilderness castles/forts where being made, I know it wouldn't be acceptable to just go dig a large cavern right next to them. I dont understand why josst thinks its ok to do this.

Now, I can see the work that has gone into Jossts hole. So Im not going to ask him to fill it up, and "gtfo off my property".. all Im asking is that he does not ruin the area I chose.

EDIT: My specific request is that he take his hole back a bit, so it does not extrude out of my mountain face.

I chose that area, because it was away from everyone.. then someone makes a bee-line in a straight tunnel to ruin my mountain face..

I know most of you, if not all of, barring Josst, are decent players who understand its important to respect other peoples area/items/buildings.

He told me he wants to extend his cave another 40 blocks out of my mountain... just for the sake of it.. he wants to ruin another players area.. even when he has ample room to continue his cave, the other end, without ruining anyones stuff.. As you can see in the pic below..

Pic

I want Josstwc to stop his cave where it is as of now. That it should not interefere with my mountain face.

Im happy to create a vote/poll, asap. As I understand most of the players on the server will see sense in my argument here. And I wanted to go through official channels.

Regards, Mitch.


(Its also important to note, that the entrance you see to my cave, is not just that. its a very large area inside.. thats taken much time to create, I'v been on this spot for ages.. meanwhile josst has been digging straight at me, for many a mile.)

[Danny_K_1]

So what is the course of action you are advising? A ban as he ignores all warnings?

BTW nice Dwarven place lol. May I help? I make good labyrinths of tunnels.

[Katsumoto]

Josst needs to get his ass out of there. There is so much space to dig caves so there is no reason for him to be infringing upon your land. If he doesn't listen to the warnings a ban may be required IMO.

[.Mitch.]

Have you guys seen pictures of his house in town ?

His buildings (and 'diggings') simply bare no regard for other players at all.. Just ask English tyrant, he built a lava house in the city, next to the wooden structures, then he even connected it to English tyrants house..

I wasn't going to suggest a ban at first, just that he takes his cave back a bit out of my mountain face.. but a ban might be neccesary to cool him down.

And yes Danny, I would loveeee to have an expert miner such as yourself come help!

[Ferrets54]

Okay. Firstly, let's ignore the aesthetics of other player's constructions because it's not relevant.

Mitch, you are unhappy with Joss building so close and interfering with your own plans - this is reasonable. Have you asked him directly to not, and explained why?

Aanker, what is your opinion on the situation?

Joss, what is your side of the story?

Keep in mind if this discussion is not civil it may result in us having a moderator visit us and that would be bad for the community as a whole. Thanks.

[.Mitch.]

Mitch, you are unhappy with Joss building so close and interfering with your own plans - this is reasonable. Have you asked him directly to not, and explained why?

Well as I mentioned in the OP, and a made a big freaking sign in cap, with torches surroudning it, after he first dug, what now seems like, a prelimanary tunnel through to my mountain face.
I did give him fair warning, there was a somewhat heated discussion on the server yesterday where I explained my points. After he broke through, as you can see, I then told him this was unacceptable. And that it would be debated on the forum. For some strange reason Poach decided it was not against the rules that somebody can interfere so closely with other peoples plans/things, laughable, Im going to go dig a hole next to his stuff while this is all going on btw.

Aanker, what is your opinion on the situation?

Aanker can speak for himself on the matter. But when I told Aanker Josst was building above him, he was less than impressed.. oddly I think it was Poach, who even agreed with me when we told Josst, that its important to first get permission to closely build/dig near someone.
Josst then waited, and Aanker, being the nice calm guy he is, allowed Josst to continue.

[Ferrets54]

Okay we'll wait for Aanker and Joss.

[Poach]

The relevent rules:

4)No building over another player's building.

5)No building directly under another player's building without their permission.

As you can see, neither rule actually covers the situation we have, as this is a matter of laying claim to an area of land, which both seek to make use of.

The following points should be worth noting:

1. From the information I gathered while in discussion with the two (I was online when the dispute arose), Josstwc started his "infinite tunnel" roughly 24 hours before Mitch started his Dwarven city.

2. Neither had made any specific claim to the land in dispute prior to the dispute itself: Mitch, I think (He was more interested in throwing insults), regards it as his for aesthetic purposes, Joss regards it as his because his stated aim from the onset of his tunnel was to make it that long.

3. As of last night, Joss has halted his tunneling efforts until this dispute has been resolved.

Additional points of note, outwith the dispute itself but brought to relevence by Mitch bringing them into this thread:

1. Joss' hall above Aanker's was halted when asked until permission had been sought from Aanker to have it above his hall.

2. Joss' home was, indeed, touching English_Tyrant's. He has been asked and has agreed to remedy the situation. I am unaware of the current state of that issue. I agree that having a lava house in a city of mainly wood is a foolish move, at best, and I am unaware where he acquired the lava. I, as well as others, have already expressed their dislike of his City house. As no rules exist to ban this sort of creation, there's nothing that can be done as of yet.



Personally, from my own surveying of the area at the time, I think Joss' tunnel could be sufficiently landscaped to appear as part of the mountain. It would require a lot of dirt ontop of it to create a look of being natural, but we could simply issue that as a condition to Joss for allowing him to finish the hall.

I am, however, in favour of Joss building his tunnel backwards into the narrow corridor pictured by Mitch. It would allow Joss to complete his tunnel to the disired length, and settle this dispute by leaving the area infront of Mitch's entrance untouched.

[Ferrets54]

As far as I can see so far Poach the relevant rule is the Golden Rule. Mitch clearly is upset with what's happening and if he has asked Joss to stop and he has not then that's relevant. Courtesy is very, very important and yes I would be unhappy if somebody randomly started digging around my own little project especially considering the size of the world available to us.

But we will see what Joss and Aanker say.

[Poach]

The Golden Rule, unfortunately, is a double edged sword in this instance: Joss can make the claim that he started first and Mitch's opposition is ruining a project he has invested a lot of effort into. I too would be unhappy if someone made something uncomfortably close to my own creation, but I would be equally unhappy if someone, who started their project after mine, sought to prevent me finishing my own because their creation ended up close to part of my project that hadn't been built at the time. Afterall, Joss did state his aim the whole time to be a hall of extreme length, going to the sea if needed.

As stated, however, I support Joss digging back the way into the area that his 2x2 tunnel occupies, rather than continuing forward out of the mountain.

[Manco]

I do wonder, why an infinite tunnel?
That's the kind of project you invest a week in, and then never go back to because it's ultimately just a tunnel.

[Danny_K_1]

And yes Danny, I would loveeee to have an expert miner such as yourself come help!

No problem, as soon as minecraft fixes itself, I can't bring myself to mine when blocks I just cleared respawn.

[.Mitch.]

I do wonder, why an infinite tunnel?
That's the kind of project you invest a week in, and then never go back to because it's ultimately just a tunnel.

Exactly, a fine point..

He will literaly, make it. Then leave. My area and plans will be ruined. All for a pointles project.

Josst even called it pointless himself. Aswell as the rest of Minecraft.

The Golden Rule, unfortunately, is a double edged sword in this instance: Joss can make the claim that he started first and Mitch's opposition is ruining a project he has invested a lot of effort into.

He started the project, literaly, miles and miles away. See the map. I started, when his cave was about 10x10 in size.

I did not expect it to extend this far. I even gave opposition miles and miles before it got anywhere close to my area.

I chose my area, because it was... miles and miles away.

Please think before posting Poach, I beg of you. I don't know why you showed so much bias yesterday, and again here. Interpreting rules so they suit you, is just laughable. You even said yesterday no rules take effect here.. now the biggest thing about this, you point out.. is the rules.

I used no "omg he break da rules" in my post. I used logic and simple decency.

[Ferrets54]

Mitch... if Joss dug under you to continue, would that be okay?

[.Mitch.]

I gave him many suggestions.

He said he wants to make his cave 35 blocks larger.... (seemingly just out of spite, it looks like)

Leading to his cave is about a 50 block, 2 high tunnel, the other end.. I told him he could go this way.

I also suggest, he take his cave lower as it progressed, so it would glide under the natual landscape.

So yes, any plan that keep the current landscape of the mountain face Im using intact to a tee (afterall thats why I chose that exact spot for its asthetics), will be fine.

[Poach]

My posts may seem naturally biased against you, Mitch, because all you ever respond with is insults. I do not appreciate having my opinions insulted because they are disagreed with. I'm attempting to be objective, but throwing nothing but insults at me doesn't make it easy.

You'll find I linked the same two rules I used last night, and again said neither apply. Ferrets pointed out the Golden Rule, which I believe you can both lay claim to.

He started the project, literaly, miles and miles away. See the map. I started, when his cave was about 10x10 in size.

I did not expect it to extend this far. I even gave opposition miles and miles before it got anywhere close to my area.

He still started his project with the aim of making it an extremely long hall. Your failure to approximate the length of his hall correctly is not grounds to demand he halt a project he started before you. Your constant claims that he's doing it out of spite are rubbish: his aim has been plainly and clearly started from the onset of his project. Further, you are building in the wilderness: a project does not need to have justification or even an expectation of future use in order to be started, persued or completed.

Now, I'm trying to take the fairest option of supporting the move to have him build onto the start of his hall, back into the 2x2 hall you pictured. Still, however, you insult me. Why?

Joss is well within the rules to build his hall out the side of that mountain anyway, and any tampering you do with said hall would be classed as griefing. He's graciously agreed to wait and see what the community thinks anyway, but you went out of your way to slander him in your posts.

Show some civility, please. Your constant personal attacks are distasteful and embarrassing, in my opinion.

[Ferrets54]

Keep in mind if this discussion is not civil it may result in us having a moderator visit us and that would be bad for the community as a whole. Thanks.

[Poach]

By the standards of the D&D this is friendly banter, Ferrets.

[Ferrets54]

Still. Our Minecraft server is essentially an off-site enterprise that TWC kindly hosts discussion for. If it causes arguments then the admins may question the value of the subforum. This isn't going to be the last dispute two members have so I would to be quite stern on how it needs to progress maturely and politely the first time.

I hope we can have an agreement between Mitch and Joss that will leave both happy.

[Poach]

If Joss agrees to build backwards into his 2x2 corridor the dispute would be easily solved. He's not responded yet but there's nothing back there so I don't expect he'd have much of an issue with it.