Originally Posted by
Strategos Autokrator
Mamlaz
An arrow in the face does not necessarily kill you, but it surely reduces your ability to fight. Henry V was extremely lucky when an arrow struck him in the face. It entered at an angle next to his nose and penetrated to a depth of 6 inches (15 cm). Can you imagine the feeling? It probably struck one of the breaths.
Well, firstly, to my knowledge, Henry remained in combat after the arrow strike and secondly, to my knowledge it is generally accepted that he did not have a visor or his visor was up.
But the point remains the same, they lived, even with arrows in their faces they lived.
The argument is that armor still increases your chances by a lot even when penetrated, because not only is the penetration lower, but the energy dispersed by the plate section of the armor is immense and thus, the damage to the surrounding tissue the arrow goes through is lowered significantly as well.
Originally Posted by
Strategos Autokrator
Mark Stretton have done some testing on globulous shapes on a dead pig and it doesn't matter much, he even penetrated plate at a 40 degree angle. Striking a globulous shape is like striking at an angle. Within that small 1mm*1mm when the arrow get purchase to full penetration, the angle turns to in between the x and y axis. There is no reason to test arrows against plate with a globulous shape other than as a random test. You do tests in isolation and combine them afterwards with math. If not you'd have to carry out several hundred thousand tests to get the whole picture. Alan Williams' test was a drop test, and the results he got are inferior to actual results with bows and arrows against the same type of plate, even with bigger arrowheads, such as lozenge-shaped plate cutters. It probably has to do with momentum and impedance matching. With bullets momentum doesn't make much difference, there kinetic energy is king, but with arrows it's an important part of what is going on. His test only gave us a general idea of what is needed in terms of kinetic energy.
Firstly, Mark Stretton is an awesome bowman, but he is obviously a big longbow enthusiast and fanboy, the reality is that curved surfaces have much better structural integrity when struck and when penetrated as well as actually having a longer amount of material en route with the same angle compared to a flat surface, as pictured here;
So again, shooting at a fixed flat sheath is not the same as shooting at a cloth supported shaped armor part.
Originally Posted by
Strategos Autokrator
This is 2mm modern case-carburized mild steel with manganese, if my information is right. Manganese will increase the ductility of the steel. The fracture toughness is probably way past 260 kJ/m2. More likely around 300 kJ/m2.
https://www.facebook.com/rasmus.d.ra...type=3&theater
As you can see it doesn't matter muck for the arrow to get purchase when it's a spear head/plate cutter.
Firstly, the arrowhead is also modern steel.
Secondly, that armor worked really well imo.
The point is not that the arrow bounces off(even though that would obviously be the best scenario), but to minimize the arrows impact and damage, which that breastplate did.
Originally Posted by
Strategos Autokrator
However, we shouldn't generalize from this of cause, but it might be true. However, 3 folds of good quality mail and padding would require a lot more kinetic energy than 150 Joules. Probably around 300 Joules.
Take a look at this. Two layers of case-carburized mail. The mail is not the best quality, but the arrow didn't break the ring at the joint, as is usually the complaint, it shattered the whole ring and split it in two.
https://www.facebook.com/rasmus.d.ra...type=3&theater
That mail is obviously not the best quality, look at how thin the flat rings are, that is some Indian stuff bought on eBay.
Originally Posted by
Strategos Autokrator
If the mail was made of wrought iron and large rings, and the aketon was really thin and the arrow was a heavy needle bodkin shot form an elevated position, it might penetrate three layers.
Not a chance in hell.
Your own example of Dr. Williams clearly stated how many J is required to penetrate a single coat of mail + gambeson, and the more important point you do not just add the value three times;
because the arrowhead will be slowed down and blunted by the impact of the first layer and then the second layer as well before even reaching the third layer of mail!
The same argument is made for full mail shirts worn under plate armor(which was very popular for quite a while everywhere), you cannot just add value, you have to consider the loss of velocity and blunting of the arrowhead on impact with the plate before it even starts to penetrate the mail beneath.