Shieldwall question

[Ano2]

Hi, as I believe you guys are using the shieldwall forc Hoplites, my question is, is it possible to have the A.I. formations start with hoplites in shieldwall? If it isn't I can see the A.I. only sometimes using the shieldwall as opposed to most of the time.

Also will an overhand animation be made for it?

[DEMETRIOUS II]

It doesn't look like the team will be using shield wall as the AI rarely uses it. There are however some new and exciting phalanx "altering" news coming up as some of the team modders have been able to create a new animation by playing around with the original phalanx. But I will leave that up to the team to present once all the issues have been worked out.

I for one got really excited when I saw it. **** I am excited just thinking about how it will change the Greek hoplite warfare....

[Ano2]

Well the main issue with the phalanx is that it means the troops can't run... so I assume this has been changed which is strange since I thought it was hardcoded. Looking forward to this revelation, as long as its not just giving an overhand animation to the Phalanx

[apostate]

It doesn't look like the team will be using shield wall as the AI rarely uses it. There are however some new and exciting phalanx "altering" news coming up as some of the team modders have been able to create a new animation by playing around with the original phalanx. But I will leave that up to the team to present once all the issues have been worked out.

I for one got really excited when I saw it. **** I am excited just thinking about how it will change the Greek hoplite warfare....

yep DEMETRIUSII is right.....however nobody knows what we will use eventually (obviously the best we can have)

there is doable a full running and charging phalanx however (ie of vanilla phalanx kind)

its WIP in order to improve it further butit exists currently and is playable

previously we were focusing in improving shield wall and combining it with new animation and 2 weapons or even to create brand new formation (which we did both)
but recently dagger -the balancer- made his own research and showed that the SW is not good because of this u can see here:




then he found a way to make the vanilla phalanx able to run and charge....

so how does that look?

[mike_D]

the charge is really cool. nice work

howvwer in the second picture the enemies are way too close and stepping on each others toes

[k_raso]

It looks beautiful. Honestly, is much more than I expected. My hat goes off for you.

And that`s a modified vainilla phalanx? Correct if I`m wrong, but the individuals in the unit seem to be much closer than in Vainilla RTW, and that`s very good!!! . The phalanx looks very tight packed (at least that`s what I can say for now, given the poor perspective of the images).

Excellent work!

By the way, those fellows in the 4th row till the last, hold their spears in a very ... "unnatural" way. But I guess making the soldiers from the 4th line till the last row holding their spears from the waist, in a different way than the soldiers in the first 3 rows would be too much work for only a minor detail. I presume there is much more important things to do in the mod that requiere your time.

If that`s the way the soldiers hold their spears in battle (in "real" life), I think they would had a terrible pain in their triceps after no more than 15 min...

Excellent work, I`m truly astonished.

Bye.

[Stalins Ghost]

0_o Well done guys! I never thought anyone would work out how to alter the phalanx

I've been playing around with the shield wall myself as part of the IR balancing process, and so far increasing the armour stats of units has had an effect: e.g. with a head on combat between ERE and WRE comitatenses, with mine using the shield wall, they managed to last alot longer than their ERE counterparts suffering more casualties. This wasn't ALWAYS the desired effect unfortunatly, and I'm trying my best to get it to work better lol!

[QuickDagger]

Hy people,

I'm Dagger.

Well...

Our main goal is to find the best suited formation for the hoplite formation.

Both shield wall and phalanx have serious problems we are trying to solve right know.

Take a deep look at the pic Apostate has shown to you. It is terrible to use a shield wall formation because only a few man fight while the other men keep adjusting formation instead of massive attacking.

The phalanx we all know the story, but our Hegemonia team ... well ... maybe we have a brand new different story !!!! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

[apostate]

the charge is really cool. nice work

howvwer in the second picture the enemies are way too close and stepping on each others toes

actually stepping on each others toe is realistic like for example suggest the poems of tyrtaios......
"foot next to foot,shield on shield,plumes mixed together each other and helmets hitting each other"
they would literally step on each other......
the problem with that phalanx is elsewhere

By the way, those fellows in the 4th row till the last, hold their spears in a very ... "unnatural" way

the way the back lines hold their spears unfortunately cant change at all
same stands for SW back lines AFAIK


furthermore besides the charging phalanx,the new formation with horde and the SW,there is a 4th option maybe which i think that can also have some good merit
but the technicians should first look into it.....

[webo]

the new phalanx looks great, reminds me of spqr phalanx but this is imho much better

[Gunno_Desk]

How exactly does it remind you of the SPQR phalanx. SPQR and Vanilla Phalanx are basically the same..... or are u talking bout the skins

Back on Topic: never though anyone would figure out a way to make them charge in phalanx form. Good work on that guys!!!!!

[webo]

How exactly does it remind you of the SPQR phalanx. SPQR and Vanilla Phalanx are basically the same..... or are u talking bout the skins

no, i mean about overhead holding of the spear, hoplites in spqr hold their spears in the same way, in the phalanx formation... like this!

bah, i dont know what i'm talking about

[Gunno_Desk]

I got what you're saying now (sorry for the earlier misunderstanding). Now I just wish the SPQR are one can charge....

[apostate]

just to add that nothing is set and fixed regarding the way we will simulate the hoplite phalanx in hegemonia....posting a screenshot of a possible phalanx version doesnt mean that it will be used itself in the game

there are several different options which all have their disadvantages and advantages regarding accuracy,gameplay and bugs which appear
...its also possible that we could use,lets say,2 versions of phalanx (a very disciplined one and a less disciplined)

the research and discussion goes on

[Zenith Darksea]

This is most intriguing. I'm very curious as to how you managed to get the phalanges to charge. Certainly much more work needs to be done on this issue. Though I don't suppose that you'll reveal your methods.

[SigniferOne]

Umhm, I don't agree with that analysis of the shield wall at all. First of all, the fact that the looser formation units spread out and outflank the phalanx is actually a credit to RTW's realism, because that's what people do in real life! This isn't some academic simulation, RTW is trying to portray how people would act in real life, so if you have a looser formation, then of course it will be wider than the tighter formation, and of course it will try to outflank the phalanx. Do you think the enemies of the Greeks had never done this and only tried to charge where the spears of the Greeks were the worst? No of course not, by the very definition of looser formation, those soldiers would have a wider front than the Greeks did. So RTW is 100% spot on there. However, did the Greeks do what is done in that simulation, just sit there, or send out one squadron, or make that squadron so thin that it would be easily outflanked? Of course not -- they never sent out squadrons but entire groups of those squadrons, which would cover each other's flanks. And the outermost flanks were covered by the hippeis. And if that wasn't enough, then the phalanx would decrease its depth to cover for the wider front, and make up for outflanking in that way. There's no mystery there, and that's what you'll have to do too. To expect the enemy with the wider formation to somehow have the front of the same size as you would not be accurate, and is unfair to blame RTW for depicting phalanx warfare inaccurately somehow. This is what the enemies of the Greeks did, and you'll have to do what the Greeks did to counter that.

Also, on the subject of the effectiveness of the shield wall itself, I have done many tests myself, and its faults I think are too exaggerated here. In my tests, the shieldwall was basically impervious to charge or anything dangerous from the front, almost the entire front was engaged in fighting, and what's better, the formation was actually pushing forward!! I think it's a great addition to the game, and could be used very well for hoplite warfare, a lot better than the vanilla phalanx formation which suffers from many faults, among which is the fact that the hoplite cannot aim down, and the spears form a magical "barrier" that the enemy cannot go through, as if these were Macedonians. The Macedonian phalanx is depicted very well in the game, other than the one-handed aspect of it, because it basically forms an impenetrable wall of pikes, but is not really that deadly on its own, which the Macedonian phalanx wasn't. That lack of deadliness of the Macedonian phalanx was depicted very accurately in the game, and that's why pure vanilla phalanx battles are so drawn out and boring, because that's how they were in real life, and because cavalry is absolutely essential for the Macedonian phalanx warfare, whereas it isn't for the Greeks. The units in shieldwall receive a massive defensive boost, and only a minor offensive penalty, so they are very strong, and can still dish out a lot of damage. And unlike the Macedonian phalanx, they fight their enemy face to face, just like the Greeks did in real life.

[apostate]

signifer,first of all have in mind that the main problem with the SW is that if we use it to depict the phalanx of that age,then we would have a lot of SW vs SW battles
....its done to make AI start with SW as default,however SW vs SW is endless battle and also it either dissovles formation or seats there and defend without pushing forward

both is problematic

now forget the macedonian or hellenistic phalanx
the hoplite phalanx was an OFFENSIVE formation unlike the later phalanxes which were DEFENSIVE
we should NOT use a formation that emphasizes defence or dissolves suddenly

because the one who wins was that who keeps his discipline after the initial shock and routs the enemy

the phalanx in that timeframe was supposed to win the battle but it self not sit there and wait for cavalry or hybrid troops to take over

my opinion is that the best choice maybe something the formation that gothic spearmen have in BI
with guard mode on and deeper ranks
it provides relative good discipline and reform ability
its not the best but its better than the SW,the unyielding rtw "phalanx" and that formation that was in AoH beta which is the worst of all because they fight completely loose like they are barbarian spearmen

u have right though that SW (for hoplite unit) against non hoplite enemies is not bad in realism terms
i agree with u.....
but what about SW vs SW?
doesnt seem very realistic to me

[TheGeneral]

shield wall in BI is good for 2 things when it is in a long line and against cavalry espsecially when they have javelins (eg. saxon levy ) by itselft or on attack its is horibble
all it does is make them more tired and moves slower then charges like normal

also i like when they are that close together and still in formation it is realistic for a shield wall and also good for this it will be like an actual slug match

[Dark Fenrir]

to The General:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=38144

more info and debate....

[TheGeneral]

thanx dark fenrir ill look at that maybe mi input will be helpful