What if?

[ruthless]

Hey everyone,

don't normally do stuff like this but just to sort of promote this forum, "Lord of the Rings: TW" to be exact, we should have a participatory "what if?" thread. I was thinking it would be a creative and interesting idea to see the questions like the following answered about Lord of The Rings events and, more specifically, LOTR alternate history, hence "What if?"...

I don't know if you agree but anyways I'll get it started:

1. What if Melkor was not defeated?

2. or later on, what if Sauron never lost the ring?

3. Or even further on, after losing the Ring he eventually finds it, then what?

These are all more or less the same question but I want to see some people's very detailed and specific ideas and opinions as to how would play out?

Please, anyone else, feel free to join in!

I will probs also ask this on TATW forum... maybe, although I like the friendly environment of this Mod Forum more, considering I am more of a RTW fan anyways...

[Hopit]

Hey everyone,

don't normally do stuff like this but just to sort of promote this forum, "Lord of the Rings: TW" to be exact, we should have a participatory "what if?" thread. I was thinking it would be a creative and interesting idea to see the questions like the following answered about Lord of The Rings events and, more specifically, LOTR alternate history, hence "What if?"...

I don't know if you agree but anyways I'll get it started:

1. What if Melkor was not defeated?

2. or later on, what if Sauron never lost the ring?

3. Or even further on, after losing the Ring he eventually finds it, then what?

These are all more or less the same question but I want to see some people's very detailed and specific ideas and opinions as to how would play out?

Please, anyone else, feel free to join in!

I will probs also ask this on TATW forum... maybe, although I like the friendly environment of this Mod Forum more, considering I am more of a RTW fan anyways...

1. orks orks orks orks orks.... and so on
2. middle earth under sauron and^ that part
3.^

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

Don't forget the trolls


Orcs, orcs, orcs, orcs, orcs and trolls.

For number 1 perhaps a few balrogs, too!

[ruthless]

Lol No detailed ideas... like more creative? and extended... ?

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

That's about as creative as you can get with the Dark Forces

[Anakarsis]

Ill try

1) The first one is the hardest. I dont think that Morgoth really has any remote chance against the powers of the West. I suppose that if the Army of the Valar could not defeat the Armies of Angband the Valar would have come themselves to fought againt with their rebelll brother. Then the result would have been the same only with increased destruction and sorrow. Also such a display of power on the Morgoth side would have caused the Valar to be more vigilant in the next Age. I really cannot imagine a scenario where Morgoth defeats all the Valar. He could not do it in the peak of his power, least would he be able to do so with his power dwelled after became so attached to the mortal world and the burden of the Silmarils. Remember than a single mere Elf (All right, the most skilled in combat) managed to fight him in a manner that would gave Fingolfin victory if the Vala was not far more tireless than him. I can imagine scenarios but i really think that Morgoth was totally and completely hopeless in the War of Wrath.

2) THe second one is more interesting, as Sauron really could won the fight. However, unlike the film tells, he was not defeated BECAUSE he lost the ring. He was defeated because anything that was strike at the same time with Aeglos and Narsil would be destroyed; the lost of the ring at the hand of Isildur (with may not have happened) prevented him to rebuild his body, as he did after the fall of Numenor and could probably do again after this destruction. If the Ring would not has been lost, he would be able to do so, and probably the ELf and Numenorean kingdoms would known that he was not totally defeated and would continue war (asuming that they still win the battle at the Gates of Bara-Dur).

3) If Sauron were able to recover the One later, or if he manages to defeat the Last Alliance without dying, then i can say that would have been similar to the total hegemony of the dark forces of the 80 years that Morgoth dominated Arda undisputed between the Unnunmbered Tears and the War of Wrath. Life and the world would be probably allowed to exist, but without hope. I can then imagine a more "Star Wars"-like scenario were all the war is fought by small resistance groups, cornered by all sides as Tolkien says that happened to the Northmen and Easterlings that refused to pay homage to Sauron. Perhaps he would be able to free Melkor from his prison. The Elves would have probably retired to the west forever, even the Avari, or to secret corners of the Middle Earth not under direct supervision of Sauron´s boys. Perhaps the Army of the Valar would finally has come again, (specially if Melkor comes back) or perhaps nothing happens until a hero came to free the land from the Great Evil (like in Star Wars, Legend of the Seeker, etc.)

[ruthless]

Hmmmm I can understand what you are saying Anakarsis, thanks for the detailed and extended response!!!

Melkor definitely wouldn't have won in any case, but saying "if he did" in any way, by chance, what would happen... but those are good ideas. I honestly think it would be so cool if Sauron brought back Melkor!

[Anakarsis]

I see the War of Wrath much like the American/ONU intervention in Kuwait 1991. Irak has no single real chances. That does not mean that the war does not have to be fought or that the soldiers need not to do their job to get victory. A REALLY incompetent commander could have lost that war, but would have entered in the Guiness records as the most dumb commander ever; if nothing REALLY strange happens, the winner is already known at the start of the war.

[Cap'n Ahb Veeus]

So..what if Bilbo Baggins and his dwarf companions had been eaten by the trolls?

What if Bard had missed?

What if the Easterlings had conquered Dale?

What if Gollum had chanced upon a subterranean flow of lava and accidentally fallen in while holding the One Ring? Nowhere near Mount Doom, though.

[wlesmana]

So..what if Bilbo Baggins and his dwarf companions had been eaten by the trolls?

What if Bard had missed?

What if the Easterlings had conquered Dale?

What if Gollum had chanced upon a subterranean flow of lava and accidentally fallen in while holding the One Ring? Nowhere near Mount Doom, though.

Assuming everything else would play out like they should:

You'd get a Nazgul the size of a Troll?!

Everyone would end up charred.

They'd get crushed by Gondor under King Elessar soon after.

The Ring would survive and either gets buried under molten rock or swept away into some other area. Nothing can destroy the Ring except the fires of Mount Doom.

[Anakarsis]

But he ring could be lost forever that way, much like the two later Silmarils

I´ll try one

What if the second kinslaying is prevented by a new attack from Angband that forces both sides to join forces, and most of the Sons of Feanor die in battle and a last one is saved by Dior, then he gives him the rigth to carry the Silmaril and the kinslaying never happens, but neither happens the travel of Earendil? or what if Earendil goes to the sea without the Silmaril because of this?

What if the Sons of Feanor manages to steal another Silmaril from Morgoth?

[wlesmana]

The Silmarils have no will of their own though, while the Ring could lure nearby creatures and influence them.

Wouldn't matter. The first kinslaying made the Valar cursed Feanor and his people. Whatever happens, it will always be tragic for his people. Only Galadriel, who didn't participate in the kinslaying, seems to not be affected so much by the curse.

Earendil could still travel to the West without a Silmaril since he is half-elven. The Vala Ulmo kept an eye on him and even helped his wife Elwing escape by transforming her into a bird.

[Anakarsis]

Yes, it could lure creatures, but even if trapped under and inside thousands of tons of molten rock frozen into a rocky mass? who could reach the Ring there?

[wlesmana]

Ants? Worms? Trolls? Dwarves? Wait it out thousands of years? It could influence creatures from farther away, luring it to dig. It has all the time it needs, Sauron is immortal.

[Anakarsis]

True. And would probably be worse as the kingdoms of Elfs and Dunedain would fade away by that time

And thanks, i DONT want to imagine an Ant Queen with the One xDDDDDDDDD

[ruthless]

Hahaha... probably some of the nameless things would come across the ring far underground right?