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Thread: No American Revolution

  1. #1

    Default No American Revolution

    How would the world be in 2010 if the Americans never got their independence from the British?

  2. #2
    irontaino's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: No American Revolution

    It probably would achieve independence at around the same time as Canada...or become Lower Canada and/or Upper Mexico
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  3. #3

    Default Re: No American Revolution

    Well obviously there would be no USA, which would be horrible, as I am a proud American who lives in Tennessee.





  4. #4
    Jaketh's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: No American Revolution

    ive said this before, Great Britian would have conquered the world because they would have had millions of badass americans in thier ranks

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    Haldred's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: No American Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaketh View Post
    ive said this before, Great Britian would have conquered the world because they would have had millions of badass americans in thier ranks
    I just got back from Time Travel, and this is exactly what happened. :O


  6. #6

    Default Re: No American Revolution

    Actor Richard Dreyfuss and sci-fi writer Harry Turtledove co-wrote a novel based on this premise. Kinda tedious as I recall but with some interesting ideas, covered here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Georges

  7. #7

    Default Re: No American Revolution

    I would guess half of the current United States would be speaking German or French. England was a major superpower, but Germany, Spain, and France all challenged England on almost every continent. Eventually France/Germany/Spain would probably have gobbled up parts of the current United States and eventually French United States and English United States would both receive their independence, but it would probably 2 or 3 different countries.

  8. #8
    Lucius Verenus's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: No American Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by UnstableMustard View Post
    I would guess half of the current United States would be speaking German or French. England was a major superpower, but Germany, Spain, and France all challenged England on almost every continent. Eventually France/Germany/Spain would probably have gobbled up parts of the current United States and eventually French United States and English United States would both receive their independence, but it would probably 2 or 3 different countries.
    Germany didn't even come into existence until the 1870's by which time the British were THE superpower, particularly in their dominance of the oceans.
    I find it difficult to believe that Germany could challenge the British by invading what would by then have likely been a collection of colonies - or a self-governing federation -covering most of the area the US and Canada now does.

    The French had already been removed from North America and , given Napoleon was unable to invade Britain, it is difficult to see how they could have invaded the North American continent.

    Spain alone had long since ceased to be a threat.

    If the colonies had remained loyal then, politically, they would most certainly have developed along the same lines as Canada, Australia and New Zealand have.
    Quite possibly they would have achieved Self-Governance under the crown somewhat earlier than the other colonies as they already had local assemblies (of Propertied landowners) who presented their views to the various governors.

    So most likely they would now be an independent nation under the nominal head of the 'Queen of (Whatever-name-they-decided-to-call-themselves-on-federation) and would include Canada.

    Whether expansion would have been as dynamic under the British as it was after Independence is also grounds for speculation, the British were more respecting of Indian nations for example and also may well not have taken Texas, California etc from the Mexicans.

    Another interesting 'what-if' in this connection is how there being no revolt in the colonies would have affected the French revolution.
    Many of the French soldiers who won that war returned home with revolutionary ideas, Lafayette their commander became a leader in the movement against the French monarchy (absolute rule by a single person).
    In 1789 he took a seat in the Estates General, the French legislature. The adoption of the Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen (loosely based on the Declaration of Independence) was his idea, and he was given the command of the Parisian National Guard, a force of citizen-soldiers created to defend the new constitutional monarchy.
    Lafayette favored a moderate course (a gradual rate of change) for the Revolution but found that many others were not so willing to wait. His popularity declined, and his command to his troops to fire on a mob in 1791 led to his dismissal as command of the guard.

    Read more: Marquis de Lafayette Biography - life, mother, information, born, house, time, year http://www.notablebiographies.com/Ki...#ixzz15R04GmrL

    So it is an interesting part of this 'what-if' is if the French revolution would have happened, would have occurred later or taken a different form ?

    One last possible change - assuming the, probably now federated, (Australia became a federation in 1900) Self-Governing North American colonies, were as powerful as historically by 1914 and as loyal to the 'Home country' as Canada, Australia and NZ - would the Germans have risked going to war?
    If so would they have risked violating Belgian Neutrality which was guaranteed to bring the British and her Empire into the war against Germany?.

    So yes lot's of potential differences to the world if the American revolt had not taken place, definitely a history-changing event.

    Cheers

    Lucius



  9. #9
    The Fishman's Avatar Senator
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    Icon1 Re: No American Revolution

    I doubt the British would have conquered India, since the Subcontinent was seen as a replacement for the lost American colonies.
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: No American Revolution

    Not entirely true. We may have conquered it at a slower pace but we still would have. The EIC did a lot of the work in India, not the British Government.

  11. #11
    Lucius Verenus's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: No American Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Poach View Post
    Not entirely true. We may have conquered it at a slower pace but we still would have. The EIC did a lot of the work in India, not the British Government.
    The impetus to 'conquer' India was partly trade (East India Company) and partly removing and keeping out the French Influence, Wellesley cut his genherals teeth here in 1803 and I think, given the economic impetus that the lack of a revolt in North America would have made no difference.

    Same goes with the colonisation of Australia and NZ, main impetus being to prevent the French from taking them (to get an idea of how real that possibility was, the first islands in the pacific off the east coast of Australia is French New Caledonia).

    A more interesting question would be regarding South Africa, Britain took the Cape off Holland as a result of them recognising the US and declaring war on Britian (Bad idea).
    On one hand the Cape (Prior to the suez canal construction) was an important way-station on the Far-east route, which was becoming more important to the British because of India.
    On the other hand with no war between Britain and Holland, Britain had no reason to take it.

    The more I look at it the more I see the American revolt as a ruddy great stone thrown into the pond of history

    Cheers

    Lucius


  12. #12
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    Default Re: No American Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fishman View Post
    I doubt the British would have conquered India, since the Subcontinent was seen as a replacement for the lost American colonies.
    Australia was more of a 'replacement' for the lost American colonies, a new place to dump all the undesirables who were clogging up the prison hulks in Britain!


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  13. #13

    Default Re: No American Revolution

    Assuming immigration would remain high (which it probably would), Britain would become insanely powerful by 1900. There will probably remain tension between federalists (colonial movements who would aim at increased colonial autonomy, or a more equal, federal Empire) and centralists (those who would want to maintain English supremacy over the colonies).
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
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  14. #14
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: No American Revolution

    I'd say we'd probably have a world government directed from London.

    I think there would be a point of critical mass where the size and resources of the British Empire became unbeatable.

    No French Revolution would certainly have weakened France in the long run. If the Regime continued on it's course the King of England would be greeted in Paris as a liberator within a generation or so... then you've got no Germany or Spain as we know it. England gets France and inherits all French Territory, it either forces the various Germanic kingdoms to get on board or resist and get beaten/become irrelevant. Netherlands and the other low countries go the way of Germany. Resist and get defeated or join the ever expanding Imperium of Britain.

    Britain basically dominates Europe and North America and begins chipping away exponentially at the rest of the world.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: No American Revolution

    Well, England itself would have remained largely unaffected initially, as she achieved superpower status by 1800 despite the loss of the colonies. France would have kept the Louisiana territory, making the effects of her continued interests in the region a matter for speculation. By 1900, there would be no American superpower to save the world from Prussia and a united Germany in WWI, and had Europe been able to avoid being bled white by years of stalemate, whatever was left would be in economic and social ruin. After the fall of the British Empire, her North American possessions would fall away and become the mess of mediocrity that we see out of all the other ex-colonies today.

    In the long run there would have been no glorious American Republic to become the greatest superpower the world has ever seen, no massive capitalist American economy to show the world how to prosper, no glorious history of monumental achievements and shattered records, no champions of human liberty to provide a haven for adventurers, thinkers, entrepreneurs or those just looking for a new life.

    With no counterweight to European social revolutions, the world very well may have been overrun by socialism and/or communism, and a one-world government would surely have manifested by now in some form or another. In short, the world is a much better place because of American exceptionalism, and now that she is in decline I believe the world has a rather dreary future of feudalistic socialism, class warfare, ignorance and mediocrity to look forward to.

  16. #16
    Azog 150's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: No American Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Well, England itself would have remained largely unaffected initially, as she achieved superpower status by 1800 despite the loss of the colonies. France would have kept the Louisiana territory, making the effects of her continued interests in the region a matter for speculation. By 1900, there would be no American superpower to save the world from Prussia and a united Germany in WWI, and had Europe been able to avoid being bled white by years of stalemate, whatever was left would be in economic and social ruin.
    I would have thought that, if anything, the Great War (And World War 2 for that matter) would be over quicker as America's industrial might and manpower reserves would have been involved from the get go when Britain declared war. With that in mind, World War 2 may not have even kicked off in the first place.

    After the fall of the British Empire, her North American possessions would fall away and become the mess of mediocrity that we see out of all the other ex-colonies today.
    Depends what you define as mediocrity. Chances are the US would have gone the same way as Canada, Australia and New Zealand. While not superpowers or anything, they are countries with a high quality of life, good international standing and stable democratic political systems. There is a good chance Canada and the US would be one country. With that in mind, North America would still have the population and the resources to make something of itself on the world stage even after having left the British Empire.


    In the long run there would have been no glorious American Republic to become the greatest superpower the world has ever seen, no massive capitalist American economy to show the world how to prosper, no glorious history of monumental achievements and shattered records, no champions of human liberty to provide a haven for adventurers, thinkers, entrepreneurs or those just looking for a new life.
    You have an incredibly idealistic view of the world and the USA's role in it.

    With no counterweight to European social revolutions, the world very well may have been overrun by socialism and/or communism, and a one-world government would surely have manifested by now in some form or another. In short, the world is a much better place because of American exceptionalism, and now that she is in decline I believe the world has a rather dreary future of feudalistic socialism, class warfare, ignorance and mediocrity to look forward to.
    Again I don't see why. The USA was in isolationism in the 20's and 30's when the dangers of socialist/communist rebellion and reform were 'threatening' Europe the most and they got by without falling to it.
    Last edited by Azog 150; December 07, 2010 at 07:17 PM.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: No American Revolution

    USA would have remained a colony until the mid to late 1880's, then made a dominion and effectively rule itself, and then be very similiar to Canada and Australia in terms of having a govenor general and the monarchy as symbolic head. 'America' may be smaller, as French colonies would still exist and Mexico would be right in there in Texas and California.


    Slavery would have been abolished earlier.
    Then would have been no segregation.
    They would have got involved straight away in the world wars instead of being late.

    Basically things would have been better.

    In the long run there would have been no glorious American Republic to become the greatest superpower the world has ever seen, no massive capitalist American economy to show the world how to prosper, no glorious history of monumental achievements and shattered records, no champions of human liberty to provide a haven for adventurers, thinkers, entrepreneurs or those just looking for a new life.
    BAhahahahaha, this is comical.
    And stupid.

  18. #18

    Default Re: No American Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fishman View Post
    I doubt the British would have conquered India, since the Subcontinent was seen as a replacement for the lost American colonies.
    Nah....we wanted the world. Expansion wouldn't have stopped if America had never revolted.

  19. #19
    Pious Agnost's Avatar Praefectus
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    It really is impossible to predict

    Quote Originally Posted by ♔Lucius Verenus♔ View Post
    Germany didn't even come into existence until the 1870's by which time the British were THE superpower, particularly in their dominance of the oceans.
    I find it difficult to believe that Germany could challenge the British by invading what would by then have likely been a collection of colonies - or a self-governing federation -covering most of the area the US and Canada now does.

    The French had already been removed from North America and , given Napoleon was unable to invade Britain, it is difficult to see how they could have invaded the North American continent.

    Spain alone had long since ceased to be a threat.

    If the colonies had remained loyal then, politically, they would most certainly have developed along the same lines as Canada, Australia and New Zealand have.
    Quite possibly they would have achieved Self-Governance under the crown somewhat earlier than the other colonies as they already had local assemblies (of Propertied landowners) who presented their views to the various governors.

    So most likely they would now be an independent nation under the nominal head of the 'Queen of (Whatever-name-they-decided-to-call-themselves-on-federation) and would include Canada.

    Whether expansion would have been as dynamic under the British as it was after Independence is also grounds for speculation, the British were more respecting of Indian nations for example and also may well not have taken Texas, California etc from the Mexicans.

    Another interesting 'what-if' in this connection is how there being no revolt in the colonies would have affected the French revolution.
    Many of the French soldiers who won that war returned home with revolutionary ideas, Lafayette their commander became a leader in the movement against the French monarchy (absolute rule by a single person).
    In 1789 he took a seat in the Estates General, the French legislature. The adoption of the Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen (loosely based on the Declaration of Independence) was his idea, and he was given the command of the Parisian National Guard, a force of citizen-soldiers created to defend the new constitutional monarchy.
    Lafayette favored a moderate course (a gradual rate of change) for the Revolution but found that many others were not so willing to wait. His popularity declined, and his command to his troops to fire on a mob in 1791 led to his dismissal as command of the guard.

    Read more: Marquis de Lafayette Biography - life, mother, information, born, house, time, year http://www.notablebiographies.com/Ki...#ixzz15R04GmrL

    So it is an interesting part of this 'what-if' is if the French revolution would have happened, would have occurred later or taken a different form ?

    One last possible change - assuming the, probably now federated, (Australia became a federation in 1900) Self-Governing North American colonies, were as powerful as historically by 1914 and as loyal to the 'Home country' as Canada, Australia and NZ - would the Germans have risked going to war?
    If so would they have risked violating Belgian Neutrality which was guaranteed to bring the British and her Empire into the war against Germany?.

    So yes lot's of potential differences to the world if the American revolt had not taken place, definitely a history-changing event.

    Cheers

    Lucius

    This is the best attempt in this thread though .

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fishman View Post
    I doubt the British would have conquered India, since the Subcontinent was seen as a replacement for the lost American colonies.
    The American colonies produced less income than Jamaica.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    By 1900, there would be no American superpower to save the world from Prussia and a united Germany in WWI, and had Europe been able to avoid being bled white by years of stalemate, whatever was left would be in economic and social ruin.


    Hahahahaha.

    That is all
    After the fall of the British Empire, her North American possessions would fall away and become the mess of mediocrity that we see out of all the other ex-colonies today.
    You are aware of course, that both Canada and Australia have a higher living standard than the US?

    In the long run there would have been no glorious American Republic to become the greatest superpower the world has ever seen, no massive capitalist American economy to show the world how to prosper, no glorious history of monumental achievements and shattered records, no champions of human liberty to provide a haven for adventurers, thinkers, entrepreneurs or those just looking for a new life.
    There was originally little the US offered that could not have been offered by Argentina, Chile, Mexico e.t.c.

    With no counterweight to European social revolutions,
    Other than the British Empire.

    You know, the one that actively opposed communist movements before the Americans did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    I'd say we'd probably have a world government directed from London.

    I think there would be a point of critical mass where the size and resources of the British Empire became unbeatable.

    No French Revolution would certainly have weakened France in the long run. If the Regime continued on it's course the King of England would be greeted in Paris as a liberator within a generation or so... then you've got no Germany or Spain as we know it. England gets France and inherits all French Territory, it either forces the various Germanic kingdoms to get on board or resist and get beaten/become irrelevant. Netherlands and the other low countries go the way of Germany. Resist and get defeated or join the ever expanding Imperium of Britain.

    Britain basically dominates Europe and North America and begins chipping away exponentially at the rest of the world.
    The British Empire fuelled trade with conquest, not the other way around.

    Conquering France would've imbalanced Europe MAJORLY and required the Brits to maintain a substantial presence both diplomatically and militarily on the European mainland. It would simply not have been plausible, possible or desired.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    By 1900, there would be no American superpower to save the world from Prussia and a united Germany in WWI, and had Europe been able to avoid being bled white by years of stalemate, whatever was left would be in economic and social ruin.


    Hahahaha.

    That is all
    After the fall of the British Empire, her North American possessions would fall away and become the mess of mediocrity that we see out of all the other ex-colonies today.
    You are aware of course, that both Canada and Australia have a higher living standard than the US?

    In the long run there would have been no glorious American Republic to become the greatest superpower the world has ever seen, no massive capitalist American economy to show the world how to prosper, no glorious history of monumental achievements and shattered records, no champions of human liberty to provide a haven for adventurers, thinkers, entrepreneurs or those just looking for a new life.
    You are aware, of course, that there was originally little the US offered that could not have been offered by Argentina, Chile, Mexico e.t.c.?
    Last edited by Lord Consul; December 07, 2010 at 08:16 PM. Reason: double post

  20. #20
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: No American Revolution

    There would be no "United States" we'd see a few dozen confederated states which are no different then any of the other British Commonwealth States. It would all be Britain.

    From the North Pole to the Panama Canal at least would be Britain by the 1900s. The Pacific Islands? Britain. The Indian subcontinent? Britain. Swathes of Africa? Britain. The Middle East? Britain. France would have collapsed and an "enlightened" and possibly pro British republic might arise. It also might be very against Britain. Depends on finer details.
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