Did the Vikings find america??

[Muizer]

Vikeing discovered america? hhmmm tell that to my indian forefather's. prime example of white european minded world view's. vikeing's were NOT the first, america's had ppl here at least 10,000 before them. so why does this "myth" still taught?

oh here we go
what is meant that the Vikings reached America before any other European. And you know what he meant, so dont try to get all preachy on us

I think you two are in perfect agreement actually Wonder what you'd answer to the question "who discovered Europe?" Oh never mind, carry on.......

Mzr

[Last Roman]

Yeah I guess it's not that far fetched. Just look at the celts, they went to Turkey and even to Egypt.

ya, but had known about those places for awhile due to Greek colonies on the southern Gallic shore, and it was a lot shorter distance.

[vopohame]

Romans were documented as saying the celt ships were huge I am going to look up to see if that was true.

[EvilNed]

If there's any archeologal evidence that proves that the carthaginians stumbled upon America, I'll believe it. Otherwise: Noway! The viking had seaworthy ships, built for atlantic waves and navigation. The carthaginians had no such vessels.

As for vikings in America:

They came into conflict with the native indians, but not because of their "warlike nature". Remember, vikings were traders first and foremost. Their society was harsh and unforgiving, but it's clear that the vikings came to America to settle: Not raid. I saw a program once that suggested one thing: What is one possible gift that norsemen could give to their native american neighbours?

Milk.

And what is it that so many native americans are allergic to?

Milk.

So, the native americans must have assumed that the norsemen had given them poison. Everyone got stomach sick from that stuff! That's probably how the hostilities started. Norsemen were excellent fighters, and their society was a true example of "survival of the fittest". But they were not numerous, as the native americans were. That's probably why they took back home.

I also read one suggestion that the reason why the viking settlements failed was because of a zombie outbreak (no, I'm not kidding). But that seemed less probable.

[Last Roman]

I also read one suggestion that the reason why the viking settlements failed was because of a zombie outbreak (no, I'm not kidding). But that seemed less probable.

you mean like the living dead kind of zombie?

and I had never heard of that milk theory before, very intresting.

[MaximiIian]

Romans were documented as saying the celt ships were huge I am going to look up to see if that was true.

Huge? Maybe.
Seaworthy? Possibly.
Capable of traversing a massive ocean frought with perilous perils? Hell. No.

The Vikings (Icelanders specifically) were the first Europeans to land on the North American continent. Get over it.

[Bwaho]

Vikeing discovered america? hhmmm tell that to my indian forefather's. prime example of white european minded world view's. vikeing's were NOT the first, america's had ppl here at least 10,000 before them. so why does this "myth" still taught?

Got a chance to express your hate of white people did ya?
You know what we are talking about so stop pretending you don't know. Who was the first from europe to discover America is the discussion. We know that native indiands were first, no one has suggested otherwise.

What is one possible gift that norsemen could give to their native american neighbours?

Milk.

And what is it that so many native americans are allergic to?

Milk.

So, the native americans must have assumed that the norsemen had given them poison. Everyone got stomach sick from that stuff!

Yeah I've heard of that theory too, a very reasonable one.

[vopohame]

I am native american and can vouch for the milk thing. I cannot drink milk or any other dairy products without severe stomach pains and then all the good stuff that follows it.

Sucks for me since I love pizza and all other italian and italian american foods.
Icecream is another good thing that brings so much pain.
******** the genetics.......

Hapsburg
Why would I care which european first came to america. Its just an interesting look at history and what possibilities there were no one as far as I know has stated that there is definative proof that anyone besides the vikings were here. The speculation is fun. Get a grip on reality...

[Tim]

Tim stop using Mooney to describe native populations or any of his followers they have been hugely descredited in the scientific community. The number of settlements discovered by archeaology simply points to huge populations and that was definately supported by what the spanish encountered in southeast US. How many diaries does one have to quote of spanish explorers and priest census takers for the church to support that the populations were huge. How much archealogical evidence does one need to end the endless racist gibberish by an amateur named mooney who he himself said that he couldnt justify early exploration accounts because he didnt believe indians were capable of civilization?

Tim get your head out of the sand of the 19th century racism and join 20th century science. Read Charles C. Mann's book, ''1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus" Its a synopsis of what has been discovered.

There are many more large cities than just cahokia why dont you do a little research into the subject yourself before quoting 19th century primitives.

Calm down. This is the problem with leftists. You are too emotional and like to call people racists. Never read Mooney. Most accounts of the first Europeans to North America describe very little 'native' life. Las Casas, the great champion of the Indian, wo0uld think nothing of overstating Indian numbers; as he thought nothing of importing African slaves to the New World. The entire "numbers" game is for leftists like you to have yet one more reason to hate the United STates. Besides, you author is no historian. He's a story teller, a journalists who writes for magazines like The Atlantic. He also writes anti-Bush pieces for several magazines. Oh, and he continues with the myth that the American colonists got the idea for the Constitution from the Iroquis. Oh, and read you author being verbally smacked around by a blooger. http://www.claremont.org/weblog/003392.html#comments
He also continues the myth that Europeans were dirty, ignorant, religious fanatics, while the Indians were clean, socially and scientifically advanced, diseas free, and proto-environmentalists protectors of the earth. Ha ha.

Another take on his work. http://www.beimami.com/


Its interesting that even today, even in South American, primitive tribesmen are "slash and burn" agriculturists. I guess they learned that from the West. Now, go on and type a reply on you Aztec-made computer.

[Mímirswell]

Thor Heyerdahl sailed 3250 nautical miles across the widest part of the Altlantic ocean on a 12 meter papyrus boat built from aboriginal designs. He pretty much conclusively proved that ancient man (far before Vikings or Carthiginians) had the capability to sail across the atlantic. He has speculated that the precursors to the Incas, Aztecs may have been colonized by the Egyptian.

I suggest to anyone interested that they check out here .

[vopohame]

Tim

Oh really actually Im conservative and voted for Bush and voted 90% republican. I also have 3 bachelor degrees in history, political science, economics and a masters as well in history. I also was a marine. I am also the stereotypical pennsylvania hunter with 6 skins on my back porch that my wife is tanning. Hardly a liberal in any form of the word.

The fact is archealogy and the very first explorers those before 1550 portrays north american indian life as rather more dense than 2 million would indicate.
If you are citing any explorer post 1550 you are describing a country that has already been wiped out by disease for over a hundred years. Archealogists have been using a new tool by NASA that allows them to see evidence of widespread civilization in the americas that has never been seen before.

Even the amazon that most claimed were desolate of human habitation outside of the first spanish explorer Francisco de Orellana who claims the populations were huge. Heres a quick article on this relative new discovery that shoots this down.

Notions of ancient kingdoms in the Amazon jungle have long been discounted, but new evidence of cities and roads may rewrite history.
By Gareth Cook, Globe Staff, 11/16/2003

In 1542, Orellana led the first expedition by Europeans down the world's mightiest river, the Amazon. Along the way, he said, his flotilla passed by massive cities rising high into the trees and extending miles in length.
His reports helped fuel the legend of El Dorado, a city of gold deep in the jungle. If there were cities along the river, the reasoning went, then surely there could be a civilization -- and maybe great wealth -- lost in the rain forest.
In modern times, this possibility has been largely discounted. Every expedition since Orellana has seen no cities on the river and found only small tribes in the jungle.
And there is another problem: The soil is so bad for agriculture that it is hard to imagine it sustaining a dense population. Indeed, in the 1950s, a pair of researchers concluded that all of the Amazon is a "counterfeit paradise," a place that teems with life but is profoundly unsuited for the dense populations that are the hallmark of great civilizations.
Now, though, a small group of modern explorers is finding evidence that the Amazon may have once been home to a sprawling world of forgotten roads and cities.
For the last decade, University of Vermont associate professor James B. Petersen has been investigating areas of the Amazon with a mysterious, incredibly rich soil, called terra preta. He and others believe that the charcoal-black soil, several feet deep, is left over from human settlements. Examining the area, they have found massive mounds, strewn with ceramic shards. These mounds mark cities, they believe, and these cities were connected by roads to more cities. "
Everywhere we go," Petersen says, "we find more."
If their theories are correct, the implications could be vast and surprising. The Amazon may have been home to sophisticated kingdoms that rivaled the Incan or Mayan civilizations. And the people in these kingdoms may have created the richly organic terra preta, which made widespread agriculture possible and which may even hold secrets for transforming bad soil in Africa or other areas.
The new work is part of a heated debate about the number of people who lived in the Americas before 1492, documented in a story in The Atlantic Monthly last year. Historians have long assumed that the Americas were sparsely populated, because this is what the settlers of both major continents saw when they arrived.
When the Mayflower landed in 1620, for example, the colonists were amazed at the vast unpopulated spaces. But in 1617, Petersen says, there had been a vicious smallpox epidemic sparked by contact with a sick European that spread from what is now Cape Cod to Acadia National Park in Maine. It wiped out something like 95 percent of the native population, he says.
The same thing appears to have happened across the Americas, Petersen says. So as Orellana and his crew were floating down the Amazon, they were likely capturing a glimpse of a vibrant world on the verge of destruction. By the time the next explorers came, the people were gone. With no stone in the Amazon to build with, the remains of the cities would have been easy to miss.
In September, members of a team led by the University of Florida's Michael J. Heckenberger, a former student of Petersen's, announced that they had found an elaborate system of settlements and roads in a part of the Brazilian Amazon known as the Upper Xingu.
The 19 settlements, which date to between AD 1250 and 1400, are said to have included cities with populations as large as 5,000. Some of the roads connecting the cities were 150 feet wide, straight as an arrow shot, with large curbs along the edge.
Such settlement was probably made possible by farming on the terra preta soil, which scientists believe was created by the people living there. But researchers don't know whether the soil was a natural byproduct of human waste or if it was part of an intentional fertilizing program for agriculture.
Some scholars believe that the soil covers 10 percent of the Amazon. Imagine the vast network of people it would have taken to create that -- all the cities, all the time, all the history. El Dorado seems a pale dream in comparison.

[vopohame]

Even in the life of Squanto the great indian hero of the pilgrims attempts to colonize the new england coast proved impossible due to the large populations there then in 1617 an epidemic of smallpox came in and wiped out entire nations over 95% of the population leaving only thousands of individuals where previously there were 100s of thousands. The pilgrims were shocked to find that the land was empty fully preparing for what the explorers said were dense inhabited regions in the northeast US. The pilgrims were originally set to make it to VA though circumstances sent them to the NE coast because settlement was already established there.

The fact is there is a myth perpetuated by 19th century elitists that the land was wild and uninhabited to lesson the extent of what sheer extinction that took place in native north america. It doesnt fit what the early explorers reported and doesnt fit modern archeaology.

[vopohame]

Hernando de Soto's journals explicitly say and describe the large indian populations and his soldiers had a heck of a time trying to survive fighting indians in the southeast. So either de Soto was a liar and 1000 spanish soldiers who fought numerous wars before couldnt handle a couple hundred indians or there really were large numbers of indians and de Soto was accurate in that description. Seeing is how much fewer numbers of spanish soldiers conquered peru I believe de Soto and his journals. Every other spanish explorer confirms these reports. Now archeaologists armed with geologists, astrophysicists and better science frankly is proving it to the umpteenth degree. The only people that believe otherwise are those that believe in the tooth fairy.

[vopohame]

The first spanish census of hispaniola was 1496 and spain controlled half the island this census was for tax purposes mind you so overcounting wasnt in anyones benefit. The total came back with 1.1 million adults on half the island. This number does not include children. So after the possibility of disease being on the island for 4 years you have a population of at least 3 million people. On a little island now haiti and dominican republic. Britian in the 600s had 3.5 to 5 million people before the saxon invasion a scrappy resource poor land in comparison to north america.

[Tim]

Tim

Oh really actually Im conservative and voted for Bush and voted 90% republican. I also have 3 bachelor degrees in history, political science, economics and a masters as well in history. I also was a marine. I am also the stereotypical pennsylvania hunter with 6 skins on my back porch that my wife is tanning. Hardly a liberal in any form of the word.


Even the amazon that most claimed were desolate of human habitation outside of the first spanish explorer Francisco de Orellana who claims the populations were huge. Heres a quick article on this relative new discovery that shoots this down.

The 19 settlements, which date to between AD 1250 and 1400, are said to have included cities with populations as large as 5,000. Some of the roads connecting the cities were 150 feet wide, straight as an arrow shot, with large curbs along the edge.
Such settlement was probably made possible by farming on the terra preta soil, which scientists believe was created by the people living there. But researchers don't know whether the soil was a natural byproduct of human waste or if it was part of an intentional fertilizing program for agriculture.
Some scholars believe that the soil covers 10 percent of the Amazon. Imagine the vast network of people it would have taken to create that -- all the cities, all the time, all the history. El Dorado seems a pale dream in comparison.

Bolds are mine.

You need to march right back to that university and demand to get your money back! What they have done sounds to you sounds down right criminal.

Secondly, you keep jumping back and forth between continents. I am specifically talking about North America, not areas along the Amazon. I believe that populations in Mexico and South America were in the millions, perhaps tens fo millions, but not North America. Also, look at what you are posting. They offer nothing definitive. It is all a bunch of "are said(s)", "probably(s)," "don't know(s)," "some". The fact is no one knows for sure. Unfortunately, you, for whatever reason, choose to go the route of crackpots like Ward Churchill and others that are entrenched in the myth that the Americas' (I refer to North America) was some disease free natural paradise, inhabited by tens of millions of peace-loving Indians. It simply was not.

[Bwaho]

I also was a marine

Wow, this forum really attracts marines...that's what? the 5th marine on this forum?

Hope you're not making it up, if you do I'll start claiming I was in SPETZNAZ

and others that are entrenched in the myth that the Americas' (I refer to North America) was some disease free natural paradise, inhabited by tens of millions of peace-loving Indians. It simply was not

No it wasn't a disease free paradise, they were still a somewhat of a hunter gathering society and couldn't develope medicine for diseases.

[vopohame]

I never said the americas was disease free peace loving people. However archeaology is finding that north america had at least 10 million people which isnt much considering britain had 7 million at the time. The US and Canada is a combined 7 and a half million square miles 10 million people is still roughly little more than 1 person per square mile. Ward Churchill is a fraud and he claims 100 million he is also a fake indian and none of the indian community recognizes him as one. The life expectancy of north america was 35 at the time hardly a paradise in todays standard but still 10 years above the european average this was done from a smithsonian collection of 110,000 native skeletons they have on board. It also shows native north american skeletons had a high proportion of urbanization and crowded conditions. Yes you can tell that from bones. DNA shows high urbanization rates of the south east US tribes "gene diversity" urban populations have more choices in the spouse department.

Tim all your saying is that they didnt you have given no proof to reflect that indians were very small in population in north america you just state that it is so without backing up with any amount of data. I can dump over 3000 books and 100s of thousands of articles that show otherwise. All you can do is recite mooney and kroeber. Both of which said they cut their numbers to one tenth of what they found in their research simply because they could not believe indians were intelligent enough to have millions of people.

Im a liberal huh? Your only arguement is trying to paint me into a leftist picture and its failing pretty bad. I have voted in 7 straight elections as a republican. My family owns one of the largest paving operations in PA and supports republican administrations and congressional representatives with large donations. I am the 4th generation that have served in the military.
Tim you have not put forward any arguement to the contrary unless you start backing up your mouth with some details that reflect otherwise take your highschool brainswashed mind somewhere else.

[Jan Taihwo]

Now i'm not sure, but i remember reading something about that maybe the Chinese found America long before the Europeans in an magasine..

Nut sure wich but it was in one of those:

Illustrerad Vetenskap [ http://www.illvet.se/ ] - Swedish People should know what this is.

or

Populär historia - Again, Swedish people should know what this is.

[Revan The Great]

Now i'm not sure, but i remember reading something about that maybe the Chinese found America long before the Europeans in an magasine..

IMO chances are it was just propaganda from some leftist minority group. But it is certainly possiable I guess. Vikings, Stories of Carthaginians, Hell I even heard about some Pacific Islanders floating over on some rafts.

-Revan

[theking994]

Now i'm not sure, but i remember reading something about that maybe the Chinese found America long before the Europeans in an magasine..

Nut sure wich but it was in one of those:

Illustrerad Vetenskap [ http://www.illvet.se/ ] - Swedish People should know what this is.

or

Populär historia - Again, Swedish people should know what this is.

I read about it too but I am (and they were too in the magazine) rather sceptical.